Samurai Buff Speculation

[Shurrikhan]

Aside from obvious potency buffs, just remove slashing debuff from NIN & WAR. Despite the salt and tears from those 2, MCH & BRD don't get to apply their own piercing debuff. This also helps casters join groups if people grab SAM/NIN. NIN already has the most broken CD in the game and WAR gets buffed every single patch. This is the least they could do for SAM so they aren't locked out of PF groups 24/7.

I main SAM and yet I still can only think "what the hell?" You want to give SAM more raid DPS than NIN, atop dealing nearly BLM-level (or slightly greater if enough movement is required) DPS?

How is shattering NIN and WAR rotations and available throughput "the least" SE can do?

[aozoranoyume]

I main SAM and yet I still can only think "what the hell?" You want to give SAM more raid DPS than NIN, atop dealing nearly BLM-level (or slightly greater if enough movement is required) DPS?

How is shattering NIN and WAR rotations and available throughput "the least" SE can do?

BLM should be stronger, but SAM is literally nothing right now compared to the other 3 melee. NIN & WAR have been locked meta slots since 2.4, how is removing their slashing debuff "shattering" their rotation? May as well give PLD and DRK slashing debuff too, otherwise their rotation is shattered.

SAM is more of an outcast currently than 3.x PLD was, because at least people wanted a tank, even if it wasn't optimal. There's literally 0 good reason to take a SAM to anything right now. A few people have already suggested giving SAM 15% slashing debuff as a potential compromise if NIN & WAR get to keep everything + their slashing.

[Shurrikhan]

BLM should be stronger, but SAM is literally nothing right now compared to the other 3 melee. NIN & WAR have been locked meta slots since 2.4, how is removing their slashing debuff "shattering" their rotation? May as well give PLD and DRK slashing debuff too, otherwise their rotation is shattered.

SAM is more of an outcast currently than 3.x PLD was, because at least people wanted a tank, even if it wasn't optimal. There's literally 0 good reason to take a SAM to anything right now. A few people have already suggested giving SAM 15% slashing debuff as a potential compromise if NIN & WAR get to keep everything + their slashing.

But, why? Why of all possible buffs to samurai would you firstly aim to debuff NIN and WAR? Why bother with a uniquely strong version of a ubiquitous ability after Stormblood just removed all hybrid vuln strikes?

By all means, buff Samurai, but why should it need to be kept solely because of unwarranted and arbitrary punishment to other jobs or for a gimmick tank buff.

Hell, 5% extra damage is more than Samurai even needs personally (such as if given through Jinpu). A unique form of Slashing would provide an extra ~4.2% DPS to every PLD and NIN, ~4.8% to every DRK, and +5% to every WAR, atop ~4.6% more Samurai DPS. Compare this to the ~1.4 to ~2% rDPS bonus of Trick Attack over time, albeit to all allies; even affecting just three allies, it'd already beat the beast of rDPS. Samurai would become mandatory, and for reasons that don't make Samurai itself more attractive. It just becomes a compositional check. Got our SAM? Okay, then we're allowed to raid.

BLM falls again completely out of meta. MNK falls out of meta. WAR gains an even greater lead. You've replaced one issue with three because you decided to buff the job by buffing something outside the job.

[aozoranoyume]

Samurai would become mandatory, and for reasons that don't make Samurai itself more attractive. It just becomes a compositional check. Got our SAM? Okay, then we're allowed to raid.

BLM falls again completely out of meta. MNK falls out of meta. WAR gains an even greater lead. You've replaced one issue with three because you decided to buff the job by buffing something outside the job.

What do you think it has been and is right now? Got our NIN? Okay. Got our DRG? Okay, then we're allowed to raid. BLM & MNK can't fall out of meta if they were never in it in the first place. As long as Square continues to think selfish DPS are just as efficient as rDPS contributions, the meta will remain permanent as it has since 3.0. Potency buffs have done literally nothing for BLM to gain favor in the raid scene so why would it work for SAM?

[DGladius]

What do you think it has been and is right now? Got our NIN? Okay. Got our DRG? Okay, then we're allowed to raid. BLM & MNK can't fall out of meta if they were never in it in the first place. As long as Square continues to think selfish DPS are just as efficient as rDPS contributions, the meta will remain permanent as it has since 3.0. Potency buffs have done literally nothing for BLM to gain favor in the raid scene so why would it work for SAM?

Potency buffs for BLM should be larger in my opinion. And SAM needs big personal DPS buffs as well. I believe they said they aren't going to give SAM any utility buffs and to make adjustments to fit their job description which is to do very high damage.

SAM and BLM should be like at least 800-1000 DPS above when played near optimal. It won't matter if this makes them too strong for content like dungeons and story mode raids cause those content barely mean anything and are easy as hell.

[Shurrikhan]

What do you think it has been and is right now? Got our NIN? Okay. Got our DRG? Okay, then we're allowed to raid. BLM & MNK can't fall out of meta if they were never in it in the first place. As long as Square continues to think selfish DPS are just as efficient as rDPS contributions, the meta will remain permanent as it has since 3.0. Potency buffs have done literally nothing for BLM to gain favor in the raid scene so why would it work for SAM?

Then it should be massively obvious that making adding an even greater imbalance to that checklist does not solve the damn checklist. It's like you're acting in retaliation rather than trying to fix anything. Well NIN has a lead on rDPS in perfect comps, so let me have 400% his lead in an even more gimmicky manner -- and with no required skill, to boot -- so that parties are almost explicitly required to have me. Problem... solved?

"Selfish" damage-dealing IS as rDPS efficient as indirect contributors so long as they produce the same rDPS. It doesn't matter -- at all -- where that rDPS comes from. If a SAM would bring even just 1.5 to 1.8% of the NIN party's raid DPS more in personal damage than that NIN, he is an rDPS increase.

Reasonable external changes to a given class would include things like Brotherhood affecting ALL damage, or the previous buffs to Dragon Sight or the change to Foe Requiem and Hypercharge to affect all damage rather than (either just physical or) just magical, each allowing for greater versatility and reducing compositional niching. They do not include stripping other classes of their core skills in order to force them to take another to even have (what used to be) a full rotation. They do not include a 50% more powerful skill that is balanced around the assumption of use (due to having 3 identical appliers), which can affect up to 50% of the raid each a relatively huge portion of their damage each.

NIN remains very nearly balanced reasonable because of how little its personal damage contributes; it's no laughable amount, and certainly right up there, but the difference in having or not having Trick Attack contributes similarly small numbers. Even assuming the best possible use of Trick Attack for the given NIN's comp, its rDPS typically carries only a very small lead.
The best possible Samurai, on the other hand, generally falls behind not just the best possible BLM, but also often the best possible SMN or MNK, both of whom provide some additional 2 to 4% of their value as rDPS not included in their individual parses. That's your problem, and it doesn't mean that Samurai needs raid support; it just means it needs more rDPS, in any given way.

It's not that raid (de)buffs are inherently strong. They're only as good as the damage dealt during its windows. It's just that SAM is undertuned, just as RDM is slightly undertuned. That's it. Any inherent fault in "selfish" dps is owed only to their mention in regurgitated secondhand information. The resultant fault, however, does actually exist, but is small.

SAM will never be "top" even if their pDPS is eventually a couple hundred above MNK. Most PFs don't want SAM *or* BLM so yes, both of these jobs need re-evaluation from Square. Slashing debuff literally means nothing because 99% of parties have WAR/NIN. You can clear with both jobs, but why would you want to? It's like taking a $90,000 salary job with 0 benefits (SAM/BLM) vs. an $85,000 one that has 6 weeks paid vacation among other various benefits (rDPS).

You're again badly overestimating indirect damage. You've given almost a 12% advantage to the latter through vacation time. The reality of it would be barely a week with the best possible comp and timings (Trick Attack; nominally 1.6% rDPS, closer to 1.9% in actuality). Only DRG in a double-ranged party would make your analogy sensible. And the only benefits any remotely meta job past clears have outside of the damage itself are Shadewalker and Mantra, neither of which amount to much (except for add speedburns).

They will be "top" when their DPS (yes, the sum of personal and indirect -- which for SAM would be solely pDPS) is top. No if's and's or but's. Hopefully that will never occur, seeing as there is technically less risk and therefore skill on the part of the party involved in reaching that level of contribution from an independent source than from a dependent one. But hopefully it will one day be far closer.

[aozoranoyume]

"Selfish" damage-dealing IS as rDPS efficient as indirect contributors so long as they produce the same rDPS. It doesn't matter -- at all -- where that rDPS comes from.

I'm not arguing that pDPS can't equate to the overall contribution that rDPS can; it can and does, but you're speaking as if FFLogs and ACT don't exist. My point, exaggerated or not, was that even low-tier players who can barely perform a rotation of any coherence are locking out SAM & BLM from PF due to the meta mindset.

The vast majority of players are convinced they need a NIN & DRG to clear content efficiently. Most people know any job is capable contributing to overall DPS (even if it comes through pDPS), but they want to see their own numbers go up. If TA & BL are what helps them achieve orange on FFLogs so they can feel better about themselves and have an easier time applying to statics, then of course they're going to want only that in their parties.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not arguing that pDPS can't equate to the overall contribution that rDPS can; it can and does, but you're speaking as if FFLogs and ACT don't exist. My point, exaggerated or not, was that even low-tier players who can barely perform a rotation of any coherence are locking out SAM & BLM from PF due to the meta mindset.

The vast majority of players are convinced they need a NIN & DRG to clear content efficiently. Most people know any job is capable contributing to overall DPS (even if it comes through pDPS), but they want to see their own numbers go up. If TA & BL are what helps them achieve orange on FFLogs so they can feel better about themselves and have an easier time applying to statics, then of course they're going to want only that in their parties.

The only point you can fix that you're balancing not around actual raid damage and viability therefor, but the ability to pad (ironically enough) personal DPS. That is not something XIV's developers should be required to do. The party's clear speed should be enough; personal DPS percentiles should be irrelevant. If the community remains that backwards at that point that they would, given the chance, sacrifice raid DPS for their own personal logs, so be it, the idea of class choice is essentially irredeemable, because by being dependent on other's bonuses you reduce what's actually expected of you personally and therefore the fflogs cap likely for your class. Can't take the 7k dps Monk because too many people are used to being padded to 5.5k, despite a 1k net loss. Whoopdeedo?

The funny thing is that the solution to that issue is the same thing that would make indirect damage look all the more attractive in itself -- allocating all bonus damage caused to the person who applied the (de)buff, not the persons embonused. It also makes actual contribution all the more obvious, and therefore actual balance all the more obvious... Likewise an official parser would at least heavily discourage those who haven't the skill to even interact with or really understand the benefits of a given meta from taking second-hand statements as common sense without having any of the sense of it themselves and push them towards a position where they better could understand the reality of it. But alas, DPS-mania and rigid guidelines are applied even by those who can't decently dps because parsers aren't DADT, despite FFlogs being a world of the best padded... Contradictions are always fun.