The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

[Ilan]

Folks brought up the point that, without enrage, you could just toss DPS to the curb and bring nothing but tanks and healers to a fight to guarantee a win. Thing is, though, nobody wants to farm a fight that takes an hour for each completion.

I bring up, once again, FFXI, a game with challenging fights and (mostly) no Enrages. Why didn't folks bring nothing but tanks and healers to these fights? Because tank and healer DPS SUUUUUUUCKED. Many enemies had built-in regeneration that would easily overtake an all-tank/healer's ability to pump out damage - but even for the ones that did not, the amount of time it would take for a such a group to win was simply untenable. It was also the case that resource regeneration was much more difficult in that game; with the exception of specific jobs (and even then, only in minute quantities), players did not regenerate MP or HP. In theory, a party of all tanks and healers could rotate a "resting" rotation to recover resources, but that would slow an already slow fight even further. In general, a six-man party contained one tank, one or two healers, and the rest DPS - it was the only sane way to play.

In this game, tanks and healers have decent DPS. They were given this so that they could participate competently in SOLO content - but folks (understandably) leverage it against GROUP content, as well. I believe Yoshi P said himself years ago that healer DPS was an unexpected component in raids, and that they needed to bump up the DPS check to compensate.

Even if we want to keep tank and healer DPS, and even if folks were actually willing to play it safe in spite of the longer fight times, there are plenty of ways to prevent the tank/healer zombie apocalypse. For example, rigidly enforce the role restrictions, even in pre-made parties - you CANNOT bring six healers to the fight, because exactly two healers is enforced. Another idea would be to have recurring DPS checks during the fight, without an enrage on the fight as a whole - you'd still have to pump out the numbers during these checks, so tanks and healers alone wouldn't be able to cut it.

tl;dr: The removal of enrage does not automatically give DPS a free ride, nor does it make them obsolete. It all depends how the content is built. I, personally, would have preferred that they built the game without Enrage being a necessity.

Stop comparing XI with IV because it is something completly different. If you would remove the enrage timers in the game as it is right now you can throw the worst players in there and kill it sooner or later because they can slowly fiddle the boss down. Thats not how it is supposed to be. You are supposed to be able to play your class properly to kill certain things in here.

[Hellebore_Ghrian]

Wow when I started reading this thread out of curiosity, I didn't even hope it would been revived !

This one is a so beautiful jewel that I had to create my forum account to post.

Here is some food !

After the neverending overselfish statement "healers should not have to dps", which is false because they don't actually have to, I now especially like "plz get rid of the enrage timer" complaints...

Actually, those ppl are just saying that they don't want to adjust to the available content and what they do actually want is for the game to adjust to their needs without considering at any moment that there are ppl who can be fine with the actual state of the game design. And that's why those behaviors are so selfish.

What about healers that do actually like doing some dps while healing ? Or tanks that do want to push themselves farther at each try ? They don't have the right to play the way they feel too ?

Honestly, savage/ultimate content are OPTIONAL and only a tiny part of the game. All the story plot can be fulfilled with only doing normal content in which you can play in everyway you want since there is almost no enrage and all mech are permissive enough.

Don't ask the World to change to your standards without considering at any moment other people needs. That's selfish.

Definitely, That thread is truly a beautiful jewel...

[AxlStream]

Remove enrage and you'll remove every competent player from the environment as they'll all get their backs broken from carrying all the PF trash whenever they do things. Can't keep count of the ammount of runs wherr my Warrior ends up as top dps without overgearing the fight just because people die too much or just don't know how to play their job.

[Nihility]

I always kind of felt like the enrage timers could just use some balancing but otherwise aren't a big deal

like the primal and dungeon ones that exist are so loose that most people don't even know they exist
while the raid ones, even though the devs always say they're balanced around zero healer dps and tank dps in tank stance, I honestly feel extremely pressured to dps as hard as possible until the dps just straight up outgear the raid which seems kind of backwards.

[Kurando]

Someone needs to make the thread "The time has come to add MORE enrage timers". Definitely some enrages could use a little balancing perhaps, but I'd like to think it would help players to get better and learn rotations to a good potential where they aren't just getting by spamming one or two things you know.

[Aurelius2625]

Yes, as a tank I am a dps, after I have mitigated damage reslonsibly, and have a lead in aggro. What else is there? Jfc... use your head, fam.

[Erudito]

Personally I opt for the removal of hard enrages.

I vastly prefer soft enrages over hard ones as one can better measure ones self, the party and, if the skill is there, you can last longer through the enrage reducing some weight off the DPS issue, if even a little.

[Aramina]

Personally I opt for the removal of hard enrages.

I vastly prefer soft enrages over hard ones as one can better measure ones self, the party and, if the skill is there, you can last longer through the enrage reducing some weight off the DPS issue, if even a little.

My only problem with soft enrages is it potentially shifts the blame from dps to the healers. On one hand I prefer to have a better chance than a one shot, but on the other hand I don't want to be called out because someone couldn't damage their way out of a wet paper bag.

[Melichoir]

A soft enrage is jsut giving more forgiveness for lackluster mechanics or dps in a group, and I dont mean the DPS role. I mean broadly. A hard enrage is pretty much the "You didnt win in the time allotted, time to die and reset." Soft enrages are like "Well you guys look like your trying so here's a bit of extra time that if your healers are geared enough can live through (and even LB through if need be.)" Pretty much a soft enrage just means youre allowed to die and make more mistakes and still clear. Im not even a great raider and I dont want soft enrages to be the thing. I want hard enrages. I want the boss to say "Tough luck, now die." and one shot everyone.

And if we do a soft enrage thats only 10 seconds, then youre not buying much. Not many groups wipe at 1%. They either blow it out right, or clear it. From what I understand, btw, enrage timers dont punish bad DPS as much as playing badly. Meaning, as long as youre geared fairly good and do the mechanics right without deaths, youll beat enrage, or youll get close and have to be crafy. And if youre doing it all right and still hitting enrage, than a soft enrage wont save you. That's a gear/rotation issue. This is why when you see people talk about clears, its usually "Lets get to the enrage timer before we worry heavily about the dps", because the biggest impediment to clearing isnt "not havng enough dps", it's failing mechanics and being dead on the ground.

[Enla]

I think the only time in FF14 where I enjoyed a soft enrage was back when T2 was still relevant, but had gotten to the point where the soft enrage wasn't deadly towards the end. I vastly preferred the enraged version of the fight to the normal version, even if you had to basically sit and fall asleep at the start gate for it to work. Other than that? I feel like most of them just encourage bad behavior in the party and like Aramina said, just put more stress on the healers.