Tank Balance

[RiyahArp]

The problem is lets assume the baseline of job balance is 50 points. This community generally freaks out when a job is at 47 or 53 points, despite that variation still enough to clear the hardest content in the game. Like for DRK, from all the salt you'd assume its fundamentally broken, but no it works really fine, its just a bit less optimal and a bit simpler than other tanks. You're not going to kick your raid bud from the shell over him liking DRK over WAR because it means its impossible to clear stuff otherwise.

Its the whole stupid fflogs culture that focuses on raw numbers and ranking, and it leads to constant seesawing job change. And apart from the whole "make everythign simpler," if you look at job balancing, its really banal stuff like tweaking moves about 10 or 20 potency, or increasing the duration of something a couple seconds.

[MiniPrinny]

The problem is lets assume the baseline of job balance is 50 points. This community generally freaks out when a job is at 47 or 53 points, despite that variation still enough to clear the hardest content in the game. Like for DRK, from all the salt you'd assume its fundamentally broken, but no it works really fine, its just a bit less optimal and a bit simpler than other tanks. You're not going to kick your raid bud from the shell over him liking DRK over WAR because it means its impossible to clear stuff otherwise.

Its the whole stupid fflogs culture that focuses on raw numbers and ranking, and it leads to constant seesawing job change. And apart from the whole "make everythign simpler," if you look at job balancing, its really banal stuff like tweaking moves about 10 or 20 potency, or increasing the duration of something a couple seconds.

Okay, let's just run with your example for a moment. Let's say all tanks start at 25/50 points and say each 100 DPS past the lowest count is worth 5, as well as every significant Job-specific skill to mitigate party-wide damage. Improvements on the weakest single target mitigation abilities available are worth 3 points.

Let's start with WAR, just because they have the least unique abilities. Vengeance is a flat upgrade to Shadow Wall, bringing them to 28. They deal 200 more DPS than the lowest tank on average (DRK), so there's 38. They have Inner Beast, which is about equal with Sheltron since it has benefits that Sheltron does not, so nothing there. Shake It Off is great, so there's 43. And then they have their HP abilties, Thrill of Battle and their tanking stance, Defiance; both of these abilities are incredibly powerful and undervalued and together they place WAR at 49. So WAR would be average, right where they need to be.

Next is PLD, they do 100 more DPS than DRK, so they're at 30 from the start. They have both Divine Veil and Passage of Arms, adding another 10 to make 40. Then they have Sentinel, which is again, an upgrade over Shadow Wall, so there's 43. Sheltron is actually a bit weaker than the TBN due to how damage is calculated, so no points gained there. They do have Bulwark however, which while unreliable, covers more damage and for a longer duration and lower cost than Dark Mind, so there's 46. Then we bring in Cover and Intervention, I'll consider these a package deal, bringing them to 49 as well. PLD is like WAR. They're just about perfect, they have their niche, they do less damage than WAR, but make up for it with their incredible toolkit.

Now onto DRK, ready to see some suffering? DRK does the least damage of their peers, they're not even tied with PLD, keeping them at 25. Shadow Wall is the weakest heavy mitigation ability, still at 25. Dark Mind is weaker than Bulwark over all, but it has its moments, so we'll be generous and say it's worth points, up to 28. TBN is powerful, but it's not useful for party mitigation, since its limited to a single target, up to 31. And... we're done. That's it. 31/50 points for DRK. They have no niche outside of Dark Mind, but that ability is situational and to get the most from it requires investing a lot of resources that could have been used for offense. This isn't about FFlogs. I just used damage as a margin of comparison because it is so highly valued by both the developers and the playerbase.

So please, don't assume this is a cut and dry issue, this is a core problem, a third or more of the tanks in this game are vastly under prepared for most situations and the only reason you see DRKs like myself clearing content is because we know what we're doing really well. I've done fights on PLD, I do a lot better on PLD. And not just because PLD is easier or I'm more comfortable on it, it's because PLD is better in every single category.

And the worst part about this all is? DRK has always been this way. They had another of your 10 points in Heavenward through Reprisal and Delirium. But that's gone now. DRK hasn't changed for the better, it's gotten worse.

[RiyahArp]

Okay, let's just run with your example for a moment.

but you are comparing this to other classes, when it should be on whether or not the job clears content.

Like say overall the jobs abilities rank it 10, which means no one picks it for anything. at 20, no one does level 70 stuff with it. at 30, no one does ex trials or easier savage, and at 40 hard savage or farm runs it gets kicked. Would you argue that due to its abiltiies, DRK falls on that spectrum?

I mean, you really need to get into optimization before these become any real issue, and content that would reflect those disparities would probably be so hard that no one could really do it nayways.

It cleared Ultimate because the rapid-fire machine volley thrown at you are virtually allow magic based. This allowed DRK to spam Dark Mind and TBN. If we ever get a primarily physical based Ultimate, Dark Knight dies.

Ultimate is content so hard that barely 2k people or so have cleared it in NA. It shouldn't be used as any balance example pro or con, any more than RDM clearing floor 200 in POTD means we need to rebalance jobs too.

[Chrono_Rising]

but you are comparing this to other classes, when it should be on whether or not the job clears content.

Like say overall the jobs abilities rank it 10, which means no one picks it for anything. at 20, no one does level 70 stuff with it. at 30, no one does ex trials or easier savage, and at 40 hard savage or farm runs it gets kicked. Would you argue that due to its abiltiies, DRK falls on that spectrum?

I mean, you really need to get into optimization before these become any real issue, and content that would reflect those disparities would probably be so hard that no one could really do it nayways.



Ultimate is content so hard that barely 2k people or so have cleared it in NA. It shouldn't be used as any balance example pro or con, any more than RDM clearing floor 200 in POTD means we need to rebalance jobs too.

Applying this logic no job balances have been necessary since 4.05. Please roll everything back.

The problem with HW paladin was that it didn't bring the dps, half its mitigation kit was garbage in magical fights, and half its utility didn't work in magical fights. On things that you would grade HW paladin on it came out to be the worst in all three areas.

Are things "HW paladin" bad with dark? No, Dark is very capable of making it through current content. Is there an area that Dark Knight is excelling so that there is a strategic reason for bringing a dark knight? Most people think the answer to this is no. That is the issue many have, its a repeat of HW paladin, not as dramatic, but still existing. We thought this lesson was learned pre stormblood when tank balance issues were going to be the fore front of importance, at which point the devs repeated their HW mistakes.

What would make these things better? Probably an open beta where players can trial changes and give feedback on skills well in advance of expansions. People noticed many of the current concerns with the jobs near immediately once the tooltip information was released.

However, and this is just my two cents, part of the reason warrior is so popular is that the development team seems to take real time and effort to change the class and fix things quickly as issues arise.

Stormblood Warrior has had: costs and penalties removed from abilities, buffs to its combo potency, new effects added to abilities like steel cyclone, and complete reworks of 3 skills and a trait to go along with it. This is a good thing, they probably needed some of that and it was fixed within half a year.

Heavensward paladin needed at least a change to blocking and a change to cover to give them some reasonable sense of utility in Heavensward. They waited 2 years for the change. Why?

Stormblood Dark Knight has been trying to get the cost on dark passenger reduced to a reasonable level for 6 months so its potency matches the mana cost, this has been met with absolute silence. Why?

Why does it seem like only one class is being heard in these discussions even for the most reasonable of changes? I saw in another thread that Yoshi P doesn't understand why more people are playing warrior than dark knight. My question is, when you show so much care to one class but not the other why wouldn't people pick it?

[Kalocin]

Are things "HW paladin" bad with dark? No, Dark is very capable of making it through current content. Is there an area that Dark Knight is excelling so that there is a strategic reason for bringing a dark knight? Most people think the answer to this is no. That is the issue many have, its a repeat of HW paladin, not as dramatic, but still existing. We thought this lesson was learned pre stormblood when tank balance issues were going to be the fore front of importance, at which point the devs repeated their HW mistakes.

Stormblood Dark Knight has been trying to get the cost on dark passenger reduced to a reasonable level for 6 months so its potency matches the mana cost, this has been met with absolute silence. Why?

Why does it seem like only one class is being heard in these discussions even for the most reasonable of changes? I saw in another thread that Yoshi P doesn't understand why more people are playing warrior than dark knight. My question is, when you show so much care to one class but not the other why wouldn't people pick it?

This has largely been a lot of my own personal frustration but also something I've noticed regarding the player base, even from players. Warriors are incredibly popular so they get focus, whether good or bad, and so the development team will make changes. As a result we seem to have weird popularity contests, especially when applied with forum aggression to see any form of understanding, let alone the changes. We can even remember earlier at the start of Stormblood with the healer issues to see that vocal outrage precedes discourse for proper balance (not to say that it wasn't valid, simply it took precedent over all other discussions). When you acknowledge the many tank forum threads largely ignored by the development team you really have to ask: Why?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

but you are comparing this to other classes, when it should be on whether or not the job clears content.

In that case, they should never touch the jobs again. Everything can clear.

There is a stark difference between viability and balance. If certain jobs are superior to their counterparts people will be naturally inclined to favour those jobs, albeit with some exceptions (Machinist). Can Dark Knight clear Savage? Absolutely. It still has a harder time doing it while equally benefiting the group less. Now in more casual oriented groups, they aren't going to care. The higher up the totem pole you climb the more likely you'll come across people who value more than simply clearing. For myself, I use FFlogs as a silly little "achievement" system no different than PS4 Trophies. I reach say, 70, then try to best myself each week. That keeps Savage interesting for me (key word: me). Without it, I would simply get the gear I want and move on to something else. Granted, with Ultimate, I'll likely do that regardless.

I suppose the simple question to ask is: Why should Dark Knight mains just accept their job has inferior utility, DPS and mitigation tools? Should Samurai mains also enjoy the fact they offer absolutely nothing to their group and will soon be out-dpsed by Monk? People like to feel their job of choice contributes on a close enough playing field.

Ultimate is content so hard that barely 2k people or so have cleared it in NA. It shouldn't be used as any balance example pro or con, any more than RDM clearing floor 200 in POTD means we need to rebalance jobs too.

On a rare occasion, we agree. Hence why I find "but it cleared Ultimate!!" little more than a cop out.

[RiyahArp]

In that case, they should never touch the jobs again. Everything can clear. .

analogy incoming

Let's imagine we are all playing a side scroller, and there are four characters. They each have some differences, mostly tailored for different types of players. Like one is slightly slower but takes less damage, one is faster and takes more, one is taller, etc.

Now while they are different, you can beat the game with any of them if you try. If you work a bit at it, you can even beat the optional harder new game + after you beat the game once. People may like or prefer one over the other, but none are really too weak or too strong.

Now imagine people get bored with the game after beating it, and decide to speedrun it as fast as possible. Those little subtle differences suddenly matter a lot more to them. The faster character is better for them because speed is better than extra health, since you aren't going to get hit much anyways. The taller character can take shortcuts, which didn't matter as much when you played the game, but shave precious seconds off your time when speed running. The fourth character doesn't have any real utility for speed runs at all; he's all around average. Suddenly, you have a meta for speed running, since the only thing that matters is one aspect of the game; how fast you can beat it.

Would you think its ok for the dev to constantly listen to those speed runners and try to near perfectly balance every one of them for speed running? Even though the closer you get to it, the more impossible it is because the difference can be in a single second or less?

This is kind of like how people in FFXIV view some job changes. If you make a self-goal that really isn't designed explicitly in the game, and its above and beyond tuning the jobs to clear all the explicit content. you can't really call jobs that meet or fail this goal as unviable. The goal is far tighter and narrower than teh devs designed the game for, and balancing for that may be hard or impossible without destroying the ability of the jobs to be individual. You get to a point where you're tuning too tightly because the goal is too tight; in this case its a very strong parity that something like a nerf of 20-30 potency becomes a huge issue. The meta shifts from clearing the game on hard to something much harder to balance for.

I think there's only so much devs can do. Like people complain about red mages utility and damage, but the plus is red mage is a lot simpler job for players to play while still being potent enough to clear content. If you try to balance them around an ideal meta, you risk destroying this.

[Chrono_Rising]

analogy incoming

Let's imagine we are all playing a side scroller, and there are four characters. They each have some differences, mostly tailored for different types of players. Like one is slightly slower but takes less damage, one is faster and takes more, one is taller, etc.

Now while they are different, you can beat the game with any of them if you try. If you work a bit at it, you can even beat the optional harder new game + after you beat the game once. People may like or prefer one over the other, but none are really too weak or too strong.

Now imagine people get bored with the game after beating it, and decide to speedrun it as fast as possible. Those little subtle differences suddenly matter a lot more to them. The faster character is better for them because speed is better than extra health, since you aren't going to get hit much anyways. The taller character can take shortcuts, which didn't matter as much when you played the game, but shave precious seconds off your time when speed running. The fourth character doesn't have any real utility for speed runs at all; he's all around average. Suddenly, you have a meta for speed running, since the only thing that matters is one aspect of the game; how fast you can beat it.

Would you think its ok for the dev to constantly listen to those speed runners and try to near perfectly balance every one of them for speed running? Even though the closer you get to it, the more impossible it is because the difference can be in a single second or less?

This is kind of like how people in FFXIV view some job changes. If you make a self-goal that really isn't designed explicitly in the game, and its above and beyond tuning the jobs to clear all the explicit content. you can't really call jobs that meet or fail this goal as unviable. The goal is far tighter and narrower than teh devs designed the game for, and balancing for that may be hard or impossible without destroying the ability of the jobs to be individual. You get to a point where you're tuning too tightly because the goal is too tight; in this case its a very strong parity that something like a nerf of 20-30 potency becomes a huge issue. The meta shifts from clearing the game on hard to something much harder to balance for.

I think there's only so much devs can do. Like people complain about red mages utility and damage, but the plus is red mage is a lot simpler job for players to play while still being potent enough to clear content. If you try to balance them around an ideal meta, you risk destroying this.

I think you misunderstand what people are asking for. At this point Dark Knights aren't complaining about meta. They are asking to have one of the unique abilities in your analogy. If we wanted speed running then yes, Dark Knight needs damage and thats it. People are asking for more mitigation, QoL, playstyle variations, or selfsustain, these things aren't really meta issues. The tank subforum is currently concerned with the incoming patch, but if you read closely enough many people are asking for dark knight to have more of an independent identity compared to warrior and paladin.

The sad fact is not every class can be meta, that is something that needs to be recognized of course. But we also need to recognize that Balance doesn't mean everyone is meta, its more like everyone brings unique attributes to a group, and that should be a developer priority.