SE... please (an honest DRK).

[Hierro]

In three jobs it is weaker in terms of utility, mitigation, and damage. So everything is fine? K.

Simply because one job recieved a buff does not make whatever issue another job has "larger." Perspective is subjective, and that's not suitable for making a case in video games. DRK has not held back any party from clearing a fight. It does not impede a party either. You bring up points to ToB as if it did more than raise eHP to a level like other CDs do, but the fact of the matter is it's a CD that's being used offensively, not defensively, and that IB's useage is undesirabely situational.

Maybe PLD's sheltron is excellent on its own, but can't the rest be said for the entirety of the kit of the expansion's golden child? Grit may cost more, but DRK also has the means to easily replenish mana. And honestly, the MP cost is realistically 2/3rds of what PLD deals with, because you have to switch back to sword oath ONTOP of spending another GCD. DRK still looks much better in this respect.

That said, DRK's mitigation situation is not bad. You highlight WAR's more frequent usage of vengeance, but seem to pretend that Rampart supplemented with TBN isn't better while being on a shorter cooldown. Having established that TBN is mitigation that breaks even with its cost, it's essentially costless and there's no argument as to why it shouldn't be paired up with a cooldown.


Utility, mitigation, and damage. You agree with me that WAR's utility isn't a big deal, and you agree with the sentiment that it was fine without it. I am baffled how you can still ask for something that's honestly not necessary. As far as mitigation goes, TBN makes a strong case for why DRK's kit can compete with WAR just fine, if not surpass it in instances where there's a lot of incoming magic damage.
As far as damage goes, it's not far behind the others. If WAR was just fine prior to SiO, why is it so hard to believe DRK is in a good spot barring a minor damage buff (which it is recieving)?

[Hierro]

Chronos been the active Drk representative for months now, has done his research, and is a big voice for balance, not to mention his ideas and his own threads that he himself made. I'm sorry that you can't see all the information that he's been spilling out to you and on the forums guess you gotta use that search button at the top there and get some book marks because that was more than a rebuttal.

I apologize for not taking armchair gamedev threads seriously.

Also I still fail to see why Paladin in Heavensward and Dark Knight in Stormblood can't be compared. The only difference is the argument about the degree of change needed to bring Dark Knight back on par, which many, myself included, have reason to maintain is also similar.

Here's why: seen any PLDs in world first for any tier during HW? How about this tier, see any world first for notable content? See what I mean?

[Valdegarde]

Here's why: seen any PLDs in world first for any tier during HW? How about this tier, see any world first for notable content? See what I mean?

No, because simply being in a world first party isn't the only metric by which a class' performance can be judged. Paladin being behind in Heavensward did not make them unusable, just (vastly) less preferable. Dark Knight being world first in some places doesn't make them on par, and does not disqualify them from being less preferable. There are many factors involved that people love to ignore.

Off the top of my head, Paladin was in the world first clear for A2s. Clearly this means it was fine for the entirety of Heavensward by your logic. If this statement upsets you, consider how it makes Dark Knights who feel their class is less valuable lately. The first reaction is for people to cite the Ultimate clear and completely invalidate any input the actual majority Dark Knight player base has to say.
Is it so hard to believe that Dark Knight could use some improvements and that would increase tank balance?

Continuing that line of flawed argumentation, we have not seen all of the world first teams for the rest of Omega and any other critical fight. With the usage rates as they are (which is also not the end-all metric by which to judge Dark Knight receiving aid), would it be a stretch of the imagination to conclude a Dark Knight composition is less likely?

I'm genuinely curious, why would it be such a bad thing if Dark Knights could get some of their abilities reworked to continue to refine the class, even if such changes don't dramatically alter performance?
Edit: I've been told Paladin was world first for at least A1s, A7s and A9s as well.

[Hierro]

I'm genuinely curious, why would it be such a bad thing if Dark Knights could get some of their abilities reworked to continue to refine the class, even if such changes don't dramatically alter performance?

I never said it was a bad thing for DRK to recieve buffs. Though, if I was encouraged enough, I suppose I could go on some tangent about an arm's race, but that's not really what I think.

What I think is such a bad, terrible thing is all the crying and whining on something that isn't a big deal.

Gordias paladin was INCAPABLE of clearing content at the same ilvl as the other tanks, but that is not the case here. Meanwhile, the hardest content ever created was done with DRK. HW PLD literally held parties back, SB DRK doesn't.

Can the job use more a teensy bit of a push? Sure, why not? Does it warrant threads littering the front page saying the same thing and signify the class is destined for failure? Not by a long shot.

[Rosalynd]

What I think is such a bad, terrible thing is all the crying and whining on something that isn't a big deal.

When WAR does it, it's 100% justified and absolutely needed for the health of the game, but when DRK does it it's just whining over something that isnt a big deal.

Yeeeeep. If WAR is allowed to throw tantrums and riot over shake it off while still being most likely the best tank in the game at the time (marginal with PLD, but still up there), then DRK is 100% valid in their complaints.

[Chrono_Rising]

Here's why: seen any PLDs in world first for any tier during HW? How about this tier, see any world first for notable content? See what I mean?

Ah so theres the agenda, everything must be judged on a world first basis. Funny the only thing Warrior didn't win at should be what determines balancing. Everything is subjective, except whoever cleared first. I so hope no one brings dark knight into raid today. Happy patch day everyone!