SE... please (an honest DRK).

[Aniya_Estlihn]

If darkknight is so bad, how do they manage it? .

They are outliers, plain and simple, a good player is simply good. They know their job well and they will post outstanding times based on party comp, buffs and etc.
That does not make a job fun or playable, it does not make a job balance, it simply means that individual player is good enough to get past the job's shortcomings.

Your post parrots an anti-meta standpoint that at its core is detrimental to the discussion of how Dark Knight has been gutted and ignored.
One job does not carry a group, it never will, learn that well and don't make bold-faced inaccurate statements like that again.

[Valdegarde]

By that logic, since Paladin was more than capable of clearing the entirety of Alexander during Heavensward, it shouldn't have changed one iota in Stormblood because it didn't need them.
The thing is, Dark Knight DO manage it, they DO manage all the content right now, but have some unique challenges that the other two tanks already have answers for.

I haven't mentioned this much in threads, but I don't see it said often enough and I'd like to assert this factor. I often found myself wondering why I took Dark Knight a little more personally than I had my other main jobs throughout my time playing FFXIV. People laughed at me on Dragoon in early 2.x, I didn't care. I trudged through Machinist during the early days of Heavensward with pride. Why Dark Knight then, has me so concerned?

It is because, even beyond healers, Tanks take responsibility for every overall fight. A badly performing tank is magnified across all levels of the fight and affects everybody. Praying for my TBN to line up correctly while my other cooldowns are zilch, hoping I'm not too much of a distraction by needing to be healed constantly between cooldowns, feeling the guilt inherent in Living Dead forcing healers to stop what they're doing and pool resources they may have not had to use otherwise on me, etc. etc.
In Heavensward Dark Knight had an answer to many of these areas of critical contention in performance, yet in Stormblood it often feels as though I'm hindering my party instead.

So I feel the passion and anger and sadness many Dark Knights suffer is this inferiority in accepting the responsibility of the role that is the standard. These little issues magnify and add up exponentially on the tanking role.

So yes, Dark Knights do manage currently. And feel the chains of guilt knowing that they held their party back just that little bit, which matters even moreso on tanks. (Admittedly that sounds like a very Dark Knight thing to feel. Maybe we're just saving up for a major Minus Strike for 5.0.)

[Bourne_Endeavor]

DRK single target shield has a CD of 15s, there can be mechanics in future raids which make it more desirable. In old content mechanics existed that targeted random people with minitankbuster, with short time to shield both, if they would be more frequent then tbn will be nice to have.

There will never be a Savage fight where PLD/WAR don't have an answer for tank busters, thus TBN will never be more desirable. Why? Mechanics just don't happen fast enough. DRK becomes so much stronger in Ultimate solely because of the machine gun style mechanic volley and sheer amount of high outgoing magical damage. Dark Arts + Dark Mind is insanely more valuable when Bahamut does three Flare Breaths in 10s. Meanwhile, Neo does Aero III then chills out.

[Commander_Justitia]

THe point is that Dark Knight is flat out worse than the other two tanks in every area.

Only if you cant make use of the differences the tank classes have.

I think giving warrior the current version of shake it off was a mistake, but other than that...

dps-wise tanks are close together.

mitigation-wise drk is in a special niche spot, what just many like to ignore and call it bad. It can be situational more useful than the other tanks.

In the end you will wonder for who are you balancing, for the casual raidgrp or the ultimate progression grp.
Pld and War maybe have an easier time being useful with no optimization, but it also depends on the team if it can make use of drk strengths and if you are at that point, the gap between the tanks is smaller than many would like to see it.

In the end you either end up having one most desirable/undesirable class or you change so much that they are almost the same anyway. I rather stick to first option because its more fun to play something different from time to time.

Your post parrots an anti-meta standpoint that at its core is detrimental to the discussion

It was a rhetorical question..I know its the internet but well

[TheCount]

Your only argument is that DPS wise they are close together and even then you acknowledge that DRK is slightly behind. Their mitigation is in a niche spot? Whom are you even trying to fool here man. Just admit the other two tanks are just in general better in every respect. Even the former strength of DRK has been stripped away for the most part considering a Paladin can block magic more reliably and easily and they don't even have to invest a chunk of mana to get the full effect. (which plays into the DRK problem with mana management)

I mean really now. Stop being so blatantly inaccurate. Why are you even trying to defend the DRK in its current state? Because it wouldn't make them unique? I'd argue that the heavensward version was more unique and really that's what people want back. The current state of DRK is more simplified and less unique than it ever has been. If you really cared about them being unique you would argue for turning these changes back because at least in Heavensward they truly did have their own niche - being THE anti magic tank with a nice flavor darkside, even an int debuff on the boss. It has had a strong dot removed, shadowskin removed, dark passenger nerfed into near uselessness, blood price nerfed. Why would you ever want to defend the current state of Dark Knight as if its more fun and unique.

Having taste-buds between your asscheeks is pretty unique too but you wouldn't want that either

[Chrono_Rising]

So instead of just providing feedback like "I want HW DRK back", dissect the problem. What exactly was done that makes DRK feel lacking or less fun to play now? Would reversing any of these changes actually really "fix" DRK in the ways that it needs? What other ways could the problems with DRK be addressed?

Nice idea.

I want the proc systems back. I loved the rush of reprisal procs off parries and the reseting low blow (which had potency). Looking for these things while juggling mana and oGCDs brought a breath of fresh air to a tanking class which was basically just alternating their combo enders. That kind of synergy I miss because it made it more fun to keep looking for things. I find it funny the reprisal system which was introduced on dark knight was used to redesign paladin's shield swipe mechanic (which use to be a GCD attack based on blocking), and then it was taken off dark knight LOL.

I also miss having a physical answer to mitigation being situational (cross classing foresight) so knowing the type of damage provided you with extra mitigation.

If you brought back a proc system which actually did damage, and brought back a proc system which had some utility, and brought back a separate cooldown for physical damage... Then yes maybe these things could close the gap on many issues.

[Hierro]

DRK is fine.

No one was exactly bitching about WAR's lack of "party utility," because WAR functioned and performed its job just fine. People were clearing os4 with WAR before the shake it off change, and that was that. No complaints, no fuss. Did the SiO buff make it easier? Of course, but it wasn't something that was going to make or break the job by a stretch. No one would be up in arms if WAR never received a party-wide shield, and no one would have quit the job if it was never given one, much less complain about it.

People like to bring up WAR having an equivalent to TBN in the form of Inner Beast, and an extra cooldown in the form of Thrill of Battle, but let's be real. IB was never desirable because it meant lost Fell Cleaves and punishment in the form of 10 seconds in defiance, and ToB was always used for IRzerk windows to buff up upheaval anyways.

However, DRK's TBN is mitigation on demand that can be used gritless. It pretty much pays for itself to break evenly. With it, you can supplement your cooldowns. Fact of the matter is that many tank busters are magical, and what better way to deal with them than use of TBN+Dark Mind? You could even go as far as treating grit like a cooldown and supplementing that alone with TBN, and that works out just fine because unlike PLD, you don't spend another GCD to go into "dps stance."

Back in HW during gordias, a PLD could not compete with the other tanks without being at least 10 ilvls ahead. In SB, this has not been the case with DRK. It can do all content at a similar ilvl as other tanks and is very well capable of dealing damage that's within the realm of the other two tanks.

This all said, DRK is performing its job just fine. It's not weak, in terms of damage nor in mitigation. Is it weaker than the other tanks in those aspects? Sure, but it's not ruining the job. It's not a reason to cry to SE that your job has been neutered simply because you lack an answer to PLD/WAR's divine veil/SiO. "Party utility," as exemplified by the earlier version of WAR, isn't exactly a strong case for what a tank needs.

If someone is struggling with DRK, maybe just maybe it's not the job but the player.

[Mycow8me]

Literally every time I read the DRK is fine comments this video comes to mind:

DRK is fine

[WhyAmIHere]

This all said, DRK is performing its job just fine. It's not weak, in terms of damage nor in mitigation. Is it weaker than the other tanks in those aspects? Sure, but it's not ruining the job. It's not a reason to cry to SE that your job has been neutered simply because you lack an answer to PLD/WAR's divine veil/SiO. "Party utility," as exemplified by the earlier version of WAR, isn't exactly a strong case for what a tank needs.

Aside from the strawman argument you made in the rest of your post, you literally contradict yourself in this paragraph.
>Drk isn't weak.
>It's weaker than PLD/WAR.

You cannot have your cake, eat it, /and/ play with it all at the same time.

[Hierro]

Aside from the strawman argument you made in the rest of your post, you literally contradict yourself in this paragraph.
>Drk isn't weak.
>It's weaker than PLD/WAR.

You cannot have your cake, eat it, /and/ play with it all at the same time.

Ever consider you can have less than others yet not be lacking? At one point, Bill Gates was poorer than Carlos Slim. That did not make Bill Gates poor. There is no contradiction.