Please Reconsider MSQ Changes

[Krotoan]

Regardless of all the different sources, if it was not a big deal there would not be a thread this large with so many sympathizers with the OP. The sample size of sympathizers here i would say represents the majority of the player base. It's rare to have a thread this large with so many people leaning to one side of the argument. Give it a month or three and i'm sure you will see some sort of patch notes apologizing for and/or fixing the new and blatant much larger problem SE created with this unskippable cutscene thing they tried.

The majority of players have completed this run. Yes. The majority of the playerbase is past this quest and only runs it for XP or alts.
The majority of posters in this thread are complaining about a change that was not meant to please them and affects them very little in the overall scope of the game.
You'd say this represents a majority of the playerbase? Truly its a large piece of active General Discussion forum posters, but we are by far a TINY vocal minority. A sample of the people who bother to login to the forums to contribute/whine/comment does not represent a good division of the playerbase.

[Jijifli]

The majority of players have completed this run. Yes. The majority of the playerbase is past this quest and only runs it for XP or alts.
The majority of posters in this thread are complaining about a change that was not meant to please them and affects them very little in the overall scope of the game.
You'd say this represents a majority of the playerbase? Truly its a large piece of active General Discussion forum posters, but we are by far a TINY vocal minority. A sample of the people who bother to login to the forums to contribute/whine/comment does not represent a good division of the playerbase.

I guess poking right back, yes the forums are the tiny minority, so why was the posts from "new players" here taken to force this change? Clearly we aren't enough of a sample based on the statement that it "barely effects us." Why were they?

I mean, if in game statistics are a thing, I've seen more ninja's use Shadewalker to try and force wipes or force larger pulls than I've seen anyone upset they fell behind. Yet you still can't remove Shadewalker's effect. Both ruin a player's experience. Yet players skipping cutscenes was deemed a far worse issue.

[Krotoan]

I guess poking right back, yes the forums are the tiny minority, so why was the posts from "new players" here taken to force this change? Clearly we aren't enough of a sample based on the statement that it "barely effects us." Why were they?

I mean, if in game statistics are a thing, I've seen more ninja's use Shadewalker to try and force wipes or force larger pulls than I've seen anyone upset they fell behind. Yet you still can't remove Shadewalker's effect. Both ruin a player's experience. Yet players skipping cutscenes was deemed a far worse issue.

I'm not going to pretend to be privy to some unknown metric, but I'm going to guess the decision was probably made from a combination of feedback on the forum, ingame reports and statistics , and social media feedback. I'm saying "the majority of the forums say this so it must represent the majority of the players" is not a very strong possibility.

Personal experience isn't really a valid measure of anyone's experience other than your own either. I'll argue I've never seen the problems others have with "one button DPS" but people seem to have a problem with this so it must happen.

[Alleo]

I guess poking right back, yes the forums are the tiny minority, so why was the posts from "new players" here taken to force this change? Clearly we aren't enough of a sample based on the statement that it "barely effects us." Why were they?

I mean, if in game statistics are a thing, I've seen more ninja's use Shadewalker to try and force wipes or force larger pulls than I've seen anyone upset they fell behind. Yet you still can't remove Shadewalker's effect. Both ruin a player's experience. Yet players skipping cutscenes was deemed a far worse issue.

And lets not forget that SE does have the data and they already plan on increasing the reward for the roulette..why would they do that if they are happy with the amount of vets running it? It might not be as worse as we believed it would be but its seemingly not in the numbers that SE wanted. So that is a clear sign to me that maybe this affected more than they hoped it would.

@Krotoan: You know people can be annoyed at a chance even if they are not personally part of it..some of us (especially us main DD) know how horrible long queue times are and we might just feel bad for all those newer players that will not like the chance. Also we might just be a bit annoyed at SE for changing it in that way instead of providing a good long term solution...(like solo instance) It was the same with the ARR story line..people complained a lot about the boring MSQ but instead of changing them a bit they just gave us Jump potions..completely forgetting that this game will be running a long time and only a small amount of people would pay that much to jump over a story so that not changing anything will probably lose them newer players..

[Krotoan]

And lets not forget that SE does have the data and they already plan on increasing the reward for the roulette..why would they do that if they are happy with the amount of vets running it? It might not be as worse as we believed it would be but its seemingly not in the numbers that SE wanted. So that is a clear sign to me that maybe this affected more than they hoped it would.
@Krotoan: You know people can be annoyed at a chance even if they are not personally part of it..some of us (especially us main DD) know how horrible long queue times are and we might just feel bad for all those newer players that will not like the chance. Also we might just be a bit annoyed at SE for changing it in that way instead of providing a good long term solution...(like solo instance) It was the same with the ARR story line..people complained a lot about the boring MSQ but instead of changing them a bit they just gave us Jump potions..completely forgetting that this game will be running a long time and only a small amount of people would pay that much to jump over a story so that not changing anything will probably lose them newer players..

Indeed they are changing the reward, but is that because of people running has been low? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else outside SE does either. It's very possible yes, but there are other reasons it could have been done. None of us can claim knowledge so it's weird when people make definitive statements like "it proves the queues are too slow". Maybe they've paid attention to the forums with people saying it doesn't feel like enough. Maybe after running numbers with people actually going through against other runs the feel it doesn't align with the projected gain from other roulettes. Lotta maybes there. I know who has absolutely no idea though: The people who haven't run it more than once since the change.

I'm gonna assume you mean change. Empathy is nice, but getting outraged for someone else and speaking for them isn't great either. I don't think the jump potions were for people who didn't enjoy the MSQ dungeons in the roulette particularly, they seemed to be marketed toward people who got friends to join and wanted to adventure together in the new content instead of waiting a week for them to catch up. That's my own point of view though so once again, how can you know what they intended? I don't disagree that SE should have done something with the MSQ retroactively and smoothed it out for later patches. But asking them to revert this change immediately without seeing or experiencing it's impact, especially when most of the arguments are boiling down to "it's not enough reward for this" and "what if my alt.. " both pretty selfish when weighed against a new players first experience.

I get there are upset people, and there always will be. Someone is always not going to like how something gets done. Go ahead and post your grievance but be prepared for people to call you out if you say things like "the majority of players" or "this is bad for everyone" with no numbers or facts to back it up besides personal anecdotes. I am personally of the opinion that the unskippable cutscenes bleeding into undersized parties and solo runs is an undesirable change but if given the choice between before and after the patch I'm going to say the people missing out on the most were the people who wanted to watch story BEFORE. If you compare the options they had then, vs the options people have for xp and getting through the MSQ on alts now, I'd say this new arrangement is the better deal. I also get that this is based on my own personal values, which aren't going to change. I'd be glad to explain , again, why I feel this way, but you're never going to get me to say people who want to repeat/redo/skip something should be allowed to do it while people who want to experience the game as it was designed have to find a workaround.

People who want to experience the story will come back , again and again for expansions and patches, and new people who are the same will go back and want to experience all the side stories as well, while people who just want gear/progression will consume current content quickly and then get bored, or complain about no endgame content and leave. I think more money lies in the former.

[Mizunoko]

I don't think the jump potions were for people who didn't enjoy the MSQ dungeons in the roulette particularly, they seemed to be marketed toward people who got friends to join and wanted to adventure together in the new content instead of waiting a week for them to catch up.

Yes and no, let me state some common sense about how this statement is mostly incorrect. If what you said were the case then why did SE separate the story jump potions and lvl jump potions. Obviously they wanted to give players a CHOICE and yes even new players too. The fact that there is even a story skip potion you can buy backs that up and not only for alts who already seen the story, but new people who don't care about the story and just want to get to the main action with their end game buddies. Now let me state even more common sense. AFTER introducing story skip potions in mog station to give players a CHOICE if they want to view the story or not and then to FORCE story line (cut scenes) in a dungeon is completely contradictory i might even go so far as to say its just redundantly insane. While it was marketed mostly for people who wanted to just skip ahead to play with friends the fact that they introduced a separate story skip potion tells us a lot as well as conflicts with this current issue now if you think about it logically. Also you and others seem to keep assuming that you know whats best for new players as if they were all children and didn't know what they wanted for themselves. You can't speak for all the new players. Some of them don't want to watch cut scenes, which only makes the minority even more of a minority of the players that do. There was no problems with having a choice in the first place, no one was stopping new people from watching the scenes nor could they on a Terms of Service standpoint. Lets not forget a lot of new players who did want to see them did not feel like it ruined the story to view it later at the inn. Players have a RIGHT to play the game and view it how they wish. Which makes me amazed at how you speak as if you don't understand the backlash, when it was obvious there would be backlash for obvious reasons. When all is said and done you can voice your points if you want, but you are doing it in this thread where most of the replies are on the opposite side of yours. You can go on and spout that there is no statistics or whatever and say that saying majority means nothing, but this thread in itself is the statistics and that's the part that keeps flying over your head. If you want statistics go back to page one and read on.

[Vstarstruck]

But asking them to revert this change immediately without seeing or experiencing it's impact, especially when most of the arguments are boiling down to "it's not enough reward for this" and "what if my alt.. " both pretty selfish when weighed against a new players first experience.

I countered this very well, and i find it insulting you went off talking to someone ingored points when you keep ignoring good arguments against yours. The reason why it SHOULD be the way it was before 4.2 on the simple fact of choice. You do not treat people like SE did on the 4.2 change. Before 4.2 Everyone had a choice with how they did things with the MSQ, regardless if they knew how to or not (fault of SE for not explaining it)

Now they are forcing everyone to watch cut-scenes, or trying to (disconnection dodging) when there is new people that do not want to watch them. So with this sudden half bake change and walking over those that do not like to watch cutscenes, I have to question how good their "data" really is. People throw logical statements at you often in this thread, you flat out dodge them. Increasing the rewards solves NOTHING! and does not address any of the concepts I bought up.

I am personally of the opinion that the unskippable cutscenes bleeding into undersized parties and solo runs is an undesirable change but if given the choice between before and after the patch I'm going to say the people missing out on the most were the people who wanted to watch story BEFORE.

Go ahead and post your grievance but be prepared for people to call you out if you say things like "the majority of players" or "this is bad for everyone" with no numbers or facts to back it up besides personal anecdotes.

meet kettle, I am calling you out for the very thing you stated. Just because it helps people that wants to watch CS, it also harms those that do not want to watch it. People had options to make their own parties before, now no one has choices. That is why before 4.2 the game was better off. You do not hear those would be felt stepped on for 5 years because SE was not stepping on them for 5 years. Looked what happened when SE stepped on them for 2 weeks, much more posts and threads already? maybe? then people whining about how they do not know how to communicate to pugs and make their own parties.

More often then not, a lot of problems was bad communication during the runs and the fact they could be making their own parties. So I am in great disagreement with this change because SE refuses to teach people about the PF. I am in great agreement forcing a play style on the playebase, again before people had options, no matter what you wanted to do, SE did not force you do something. You are not forced to use the DF, the DF does not have to be the solution for all group making (and it never was) So why force this now? because of a half bake and hasty change that was not well thought out. It was not thought out this locks out and steps on people(again even some new players do not want to watch) Why is that? Why is SE walking over those people now?

When you take away the power to make choices and do things your way (the impact of 4.2 on MSQ roulette) it is a bad change, regardless what side you are on. My augments where never based on reward because making it higher for 4.2's change is not a fix to begin with. It is just a side effect why not many are doing it and defeats the purpose on why you have a roulette.

Want to know why I am here?:

And lets not forget that SE does have the data and they already plan on increasing the reward for the roulette..why would they do that if they are happy with the amount of vets running it? It might not be as worse as we believed it would be but its seemingly not in the numbers that SE wanted. So that is a clear sign to me that maybe this affected more than they hoped it would.

@Krotoan: You know people can be annoyed at a chance even if they are not personally part of it..some of us (especially us main DD) know how horrible long queue times are and we might just feel bad for all those newer players that will not like the chance. Also we might just be a bit annoyed at SE for changing it in that way instead of providing a good long term solution...(like solo instance) It was the same with the ARR story line..people complained a lot about the boring MSQ but instead of changing them a bit they just gave us Jump potions..completely forgetting that this game will be running a long time and only a small amount of people would pay that much to jump over a story so that not changing anything will probably lose them newer players..

I do not care how much they increase the reward, at the end of the day it will never be enough to force something on me, and I am sure I am not the only one with this PoV. I am here for the simple concept you give people a choice how they do things, and a choice did exist before 4.2, no one was forced to do anything, now SE is forcing cs on everyone, that is a bad way of doing things.

Before 4.2 is better then after 4.2 on the simple fact people had a choice. That is the concept that is important to me.

[Mizunoko]

The majority of posters in this thread are complaining about a change that was not meant to please them and affects them very little in the overall scope of the game.

First: No one ever said the change was meant to please us and whether it was or not does not invalidate everyones opinions, and by trying to paint a picture that we are the babies and you are the adults simply because you don't agree with us is obviously being biased and kiddish.

Second: We all pay monthly to play this game so what you call whining is only you trying to act high and mighty, as customers and subscribers every persons voice matters and has the right to critique the games quality. Not one person in this thread whined, what i see is people voicing there opinions on something that matters to them simple as that. Calling it whining only makes yourself look more immature and biased. The least you could try to do is act mature and voice your opinion with a less biased no matter what outlook aka white knighting. All your doing by saying what you have said is aligning yourself with all the white knights who come to SE's back over everything.

Lastly: If your going to come up with a counter argument at least think of something with more logic. I mean whether you agree with us or not, whether SE did this change to please us or not. None of that matters because the players have a voice and they have spoken. When it comes down to it a game is not a game without its players, and this threads sample size represents a large portion. It shows a good poll on how unpopular the choice SE made regarding this topic is. I don't have to back my argument up because all i have to do is point at basically 90% of the people in this thread who agree.

[Krotoan]

First, No one ever said the change was meant to please us and whether it was or not does not invalidate everyones opinions even if you do not agree with them.
Second, we all pay monthly to play this game so what you call whining is only you trying to act high and mighty, as customers and subscribers every persons voice matters and has the right to critique the games quality (not one person in this thread whined,
what i see is people voicing there opinions on something that matters to them simple as that. Calling it whining only makes yourself look more immature and biased. The least you could try to do is act mature and voice your opinion with a less biased no matter what outlook). All your doing by saying what you have said is aligning yourself with all the white knights who come to SE's back over everything.
Third, if your going to come up with a counter argument at least think of something with more logic. I mean whether you agree with us or not, whether SE did this change to please us or not. None of that matters because the players have a voice and they have spoken. When it comes down to it a game is not a game without its players, and this threads sample size represents a large portion. It shows a good poll on how unpopular the choice SE made regarding this topic is. I don't have to back my argument up because all i have to do is point at basically 90% of the people in this thread who agree.

I never said YOU were whining. I said people come here to do things: Comment, contribute and including whining. Don't take offense where none is given.
So If I have a conflicting opinion to you: I'm a SE Groupie. Alright. Never any grey area here I guess. Show me where I think they've done no wrong?
I'm not defending SE, I'm saying complaining the XP per minute has suffered and how much this change has impacted the playtime of everyone so badly and it should never have been done is selfish and silly.
I can appreciate that text has very poor inflection conveyance and you think I'm being "mean". I'll never directly insult someone or "talk down" to someone intentionally unless they do me the courtesy first. This is how I talk in real life and it's how I write, I apologize if you think I'm trying to be haughty. I don't think I'm better than you or on the "right" side , there's just my side.

I use plenty of logic. Like the logic that the actual game was polled to ask who uses the forums and the resulting numbers it showed were minuscule. I understand this doesn't count all the people who didn't know about the poll or didn't care but it used an actual sample from the playerbase and not some forum you have to look for and register to post on. Even this THREAD isn't a great example. What about all the people who won't touch it because they don't want to respond to people being hostile immediately? What about the people who don't care and didn't even click because they don't do the roulette?

I will always be civil until you break civility with me.

You of course should always voice your opinion but don't get agitated when people disagree.

I think that who it was intended for matters a lot. If The concern that gets addressed is solved then that's a successful implementation, if people are affected negatively then they of course will say something but now we're having that discussion. The argument I'm hearing though is : This impinges on my leveling queue, change it back.
So the discussion of who is impacted more negatively , more irreversibly, and what that does to their overall gaming experience becomes valid.
I value the story experience of this game a lot and it's the reason I keep coming back. I can say the same for my friends whom I've discussed this particular issue with as well. Now of course if I want more people like myself (and be honest, who doesn't like to surround themselves with people like themselves , at least in interest and value) to play and I will speak up for something that supports those values. Story over grinding. That's my stake.
I propose that the grinders losing one roulette is worth people enjoying the actual story and this was supported by the implementation. I have no illusions of this being because SE loves me or thinks my view is the "right" one. But I will argue for it since it encourages the type of player I want to see in the game to stay.