Please Reconsider MSQ Changes

[Usho]

Flagged up for MSQ with my husband today. We were both DPS. We flagged for duty at 3:02pm EST and entered about 20 min later. Got Prae. Exited at 4:11pm EST. So, from flag to finish it took about an hour and ten minutes for 1.4 mil exp as a 58 SAM.

Here was the kicker for me: We had 3 new people. Two of them were complaining more than us vets about the cutescenes. All of us agreed the roulette wasn't worth it and won't be flagging again.

Exactly. If even the newbies are complaining about the cutscenes that should give white knights who defend se's bad decisions a somewhat clear vision as to why not everyone likes these changes...Even Newbies. SE keeps catering to a small minority of ppl, some of which don't either like the long cutscenes and or hate the much longer wait to get into those dungeons. I've had newbies in novice network who don't like the changes either, especially since they have to wait even longer to get through arr because of se's poor decision making.

I await your counter argument white knights.

[Reynhart]

SE keeps catering to a small minority of ppl, some of which don't either like the long cutscenes and or hate the much longer wait to get into those dungeons.

You, like many people, keep thinking your sample is the majority, and you use that to counter SE's decision, when they are the one who have the most statistics to judge which adjustment they should make.

why inconvenience a thousand people for saving 1?

Another bland estimation trying to pass as an actual sample...that's the third time, good job !

it is not the playerbase fault that SE is not very clear in teaching new players how to use PF, or advice new players if they care about the story that much, they might want to do it with a friend or 2 and take their time.

Same old debate, if you expect more than the base flow of the dungeon, you are the one to make a premade, not those who don't want to be rushed.

[Jijifli]

You, like many people, keep thinking your sample is the majority, and you use that to counter SE's decision, when they are the one who have the most statistics to judge which adjustment they should make.

How did Square get the statistics on how many wanted to be forced into the cutscenes? I thought the reason they stopped making dungeons like Castrum and Prae was BECAUSE people didn't like that.

So I guess going right back, how do YOU know the sample of people wanting to view 30+ minutes of cutscenes is the majority? It ain't about the majority. If it was, there'd be plenty of other changes that wouldn't exist, like Feast chat being very limited.

[Skivvy]

How did Square get the statistics on how many wanted to be forced into the cutscenes? I thought the reason they stopped making dungeons like Castrum and Prae was BECAUSE people didn't like that.

So I guess going right back, how do YOU know the sample of people wanting to view 30+ minutes of cutscenes is the majority? It ain't about the majority. If it was, there'd be plenty of other changes that wouldn't exist, like Feast chat being very limited.

Neither side can prove anything. Can we stop with this stupid argument?

[Iscah]

[...] But I do believe that a part of the playerbase is not playing this game for the story (which is honestly fine for an MMO but nothing that great for a game story imo) [...]

In the end I am just curious how long those that are fine with that will run the dungeons. How long it will take them to get bored and annoyed of it too.

I forgot to respond to this earlier.

I agree that the story quality is.... variable, but when it gets good it gets really good. The late part of ARR starting from when Lahabrea is unmasked. The ending of the "hundred quests" where all the pieces set up beforehand fall into place one after the other. The aftermath of the Vault.

Heavensward's ending feels like a bit of a blur at the moment, having just done it, but from a perfect storytelling experience I just don't feel like the fragmented "we learned from ARR's issues and made a dungeon with no cutscenes" approach has the same impact, and I can't re-experience it in quite the same way that the Praetorium let me dive back in and see all of those scenes in sequence and in context again.

I'm also curious whether I'll get bored of it, to be honest. I've only gotten Castrum since the cutscene change was brought in.

Exactly. If even the newbies are complaining about the cutscenes that should give white knights who defend se's bad decisions a somewhat clear vision as to why not everyone likes these changes... Even Newbies.

It tells us that there are "more than zero" first-time players that dislike watching cutscenes. We don't have the statistics because we heard one group of people complain.

I've been on a run where the first-time player has come out of every cutscene gushing about how awesome this is.

I had a conversation with another player last night that went along the lines of:
"Wait, why won't it let me skip the cutscene?"
"They changed it so newbies won't get left behind or pressured to skip them."
"Makes sense."

Anecdotes are not data.

How did Square get the statistics on how many wanted to be forced into the cutscenes? I thought the reason they stopped making dungeons like Castrum and Prae was BECAUSE people didn't like that.

Or it may be because they realised that people were getting rushed along and missing out on the grand experience they intended it to be when they crafted it?
That's certainly going to be the theme of the complaints they've received so far - because when the dungeon can be rushed, the complaints are going to come from the people who wanted to take it at story-pace. Now that it's been slowed to that pace, the complaints will come from people who wanted to rush it.

[Enla]

Or it may be because they realised that people were getting rushed along and missing out on the grand experience they intended it to be when they crafted it? That's certainly going to be the theme of the complaints they've received so far - because when the dungeon can be rushed, the complaints are going to come from the people who wanted to take it at story-pace. Now that it's been slowed to that pace, the complaints will come from people who wanted to rush it.

From what I recall from my friends who were here for that patch cycle it was a bit of both. At the time Castrum and Prae were the only end game dungeons available and within weeks people had already found all the exploits the developers erroneously put into them. It wasn't out of malice, it wasn't because people wanted to rush out the sprouts, but by virtue of the fact that there was /nothing else/ until 2.1 dropped. That in itself speaks to the poor design of the dungeons twofold. First that they can be exploited to such an immense extent, which is probably why so many of the subsequent 2.1-2.55 dungeons have 'road blocks' every other room, and the fact that their own lack of initial end game forced players to use those dungeons in tandem with people who just wanted to clear the story. It was a /mess/ from all the accounts I've been hearing and SE fully deserved being made to issue an apology for that.

Likewise from my own perspective, I've never heard anyone claim these dungeons are well made even as far back as 2.4. Their pacing is atrocious and while I had friends who allowed me to watch the cutscenes for Castrum after begged for their help in defeating the queue I quickly started skipping them during my own initial runs once I realized how poorly integrated they were. I know many people who felt similarly as well and still do to this day. The story wasn't grand enough /or/ well crafted enough to warrant the pacing issues that I could otherwise have forgiven in a solo instance, and going back to it now only further cements the belief I held back then. For better or for worse, SE made two terrible dungeons and then got a lot of flack for the both of them for a variety of reasons. Regardless of which side of the divide you stand on /now/, I don't think anyone can really say the subsequent changes they made to how they integrate story into mandatory dungeons isn't an improvement. Because I sure as hell enjoy not having this same issue repeated in Aetherochemical and Ala Mhigo respectively.

[Reynhart]

So I guess going right back, how do YOU know the sample of people wanting to view 30+ minutes of cutscenes is the majority?

I don't. But I'm not the one having to advocate what they should do, because they already did. And I'm pretty sure they have a good reason for that.

As for why they didn't do dungeons like that after, my guess, is because they didn't want to create a new roulette in HW for a specific dungeon (or two), and were afraid of people bailing out (before the penatly existed) if some dungeons were really longer that others.

[Vstarstruck]

I don't. But I'm not the one having to advocate what they should do, because they already did. And I'm pretty sure they have a good reason for that.

As for why they didn't do dungeons like that after, my guess, is because they didn't want to create a new roulette in HW for a specific dungeon (or two), and were afraid of people bailing out (before the penatly existed) if some dungeons were really longer that others.

You can't answer because you know it defeats your view.

[Vstarstruck]

You, like many people, keep thinking your sample is the majority, and you use that to counter SE's decision, when they are the one who have the most statistics to judge which adjustment they should make.

Another bland estimation trying to pass as an actual sample...that's the third time, good job !

Same old debate, if you expect more than the base flow of the dungeon, you are the one to make a premade, not those who don't want to be rushed.

Do you even READ?!?!?!?! you CAN'T EVEN DO PREMADES anymore, they make you watch them doing unsync. Can for once you stop throwing out stawmans? Your response does not reply to my points at all.

Sorry when you are solo queuing, you talk to the group and work something out, not have the development team force something on everyone, you need to grow up, along with the select few that complained about quitting because of speed runners (outright harassment is different and up to people to kick them, not stand and watch)

You do not even read my posts, you pick something very tiny and minor and only comment on that, all you are doing is trolling this thread with red herrings and stawmans, stop it.

Neither side can prove anything. Can we stop with this stupid argument?

Yes we want to but Reynhart keeps bringing it up to troll the thread. I advice people to report that particular poster if they had enough with the trolling and derailing.

Here are the facts, every once in a while someone makes a thread here complaining about MSQ speed running. No one comments on how many actually prefer speed running and how many new people skip them no questions asked.

All we see is a blind sudden change without discussion, and you (as in general sense) are shocked about people questioning how many people want unskipable CS in the MSQ roulette? SE overreacts, obviously (lolfeastchat), and they have yet to comment on this issue.

From all my personal contacts, NN, this thread, these boards, people complaining about not being able to watch the CS is RARRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEE, it is more common to see people kicked that are harassing the new players, or new players (or the friend with the new player) being toxic and trying to hold the group hostage. It is more common for the group trying to make the new comer feel better but the MAIN ISSUE IN ALL OF THIS, is there is likely a group of people that don't say a word and complain later, that is completely their fault for not communicating.

[Alleo]

I await your counter argument white knights.

I also dont like this change at all and I cant really see how this can be seen as good in any way. I also know that there are some posters that seem to defend any kind of changes from SE but please stop with the white knight parts of your post. Insulting others with that is not a good way to have an discussion. Just post your opinions without that one and thats completely fine.

Edit:

I forgot to respond to this earlier.

I agree that the story quality is.... variable, but when it gets good it gets really good. The late part of ARR starting from when Lahabrea is unmasked. The ending of the "hundred quests" where all the pieces set up beforehand fall into place one after the other. The aftermath of the Vault.

I'm also curious whether I'll get bored of it, to be honest. I've only gotten Castrum since the cutscene change was brought in.

Oh I do watch every cutscene for the first time too even if the story is not the most greatest ever. But I also can understand that people just play a MMO for something else and they were able to skip all the CS if they dont care about it. But right now even that is not possible anymore.

And honestly when I was trying to get my retainers for my alts I just skipped most of them and only watched the bigger ones so I also can understand that people with twinks might not want to watch them again.

Maybe instead of forcing cutscenes on everyone they could have made barriers for the bosses thus people could still kill the trash mobs between bosses while the newer players are watching the cutscenes but the bosses had to be done with everyone there. So people could make it still a bit faster by clearing it up to the bosses. Still not optimal but honestly better than what we have now. (The best imo would still be solo duties)