Sad experiences of a newbie

[Vidu]

I Understand your opinion, but we're both running on assumption here. Neither of us know the circumstances, however a player should never be treated like they're inferior under any circumstances.
If you (objective) don't like how they're playing then take the penalty and let them actually learn at their own pace, learn from their mistakes in their time. Being an absolute nut job because they're unable to heal you through pulling everything as far as the first boss, or not knowing how a specific tank does it's rotation, etc does NOT give anyone the right to be horrible.

The ONLY thing being horrible will do is drive people away, more so since it's the attacker thinking they are mightier than thou.

Again, as repeated often: down to interpretation of events.
In the end, everyone needs to just chill, have some patience and respect.

You seem to have good intentions but your first advice - "Play how you want" - is opening the door for the exact opposite of what you actually want, thats why I called you out on it. This isnt even ins respond only to the OPs situation but rather to you giving some general advice that I just cant agree with, so the excat circumstances of the OP dont matter to much since this is an atiitude I dont want to see spread any further.

"Play how you want" opens the door for ice mages, melees hitting one button, tanks that think of themself as DPS (and therefor dont tank), mute bards, healers spamming only the one skill they like for its animation, healers not healing at all... its opening the door for all sorts of things that you absolutly dont want in the game.
The advice "Play how you want" doesnt express respect to fellow people - if I have an attitude of "I only do what I want" I do not respect you or your opinion because I'm discarding it before even hearing it.
Thats why its such terrible advice for a new person - obviously everyone should be treated with respect, I never said anything else. But that includes the new person who should show the rest of the team the respect of trying their best, listening and taking advice (thats been brought for in a polite manner, ofc) and improving upon it.
"Play how you want" is a terrible thing to say to a new person because it implies "It doesnt matter how you play as long as you have fun!" - but it does matter. We dont need to cuddle newbies to death and tell them thats okay if they dont know how to play as long as they have fun because thats what leads to them not learning how to play.

If you dont learn how to play in a solo-game you simply wont beat that game - or you need to learn and improve.
The problem here is that three people can carry you through most content - until you hit a brick wall where thats not possible anymore or you meet some people in a highlevel dungeon who rightfully expect you to perform - if no one has called you out on your performance before or you just cried "harrassment" and "I play how I want!" each time someone told you "Hey, you need to do things differently" you wont have fun anymore.

Maybe its just me but by saying "I play how I want" you're expressing that your own fun is a lot more important than the fun of everyone else around. Thats not showing respect. Showing respect is everyone trying to make the run as pleasent as possible for the entire group. That does mean: No harrassment. But it also means that: Improving, learning, taking advice - and not discarding it with an attitude of "I do what I want".

I agree, everyone has to show some respect - including a new person, for example by not learning basics of their job in any content past level 50. Your argument of letting them learn at their own pace holds only true for the first few dungeons. At a certain point, if someone is a slow learner, they should take a step back and sort out their skills before taking on the next challenge. Bit of an extreme example, but: Sorry, Expert roulette isnt the right place to discover how flash works and that you should use it.

[Kaldaka]

@Vidu:

I see your point, and agree with some of it, but as i'm hovering over a new player(she's made a char on my account), I told her the exact same things.
The game has taught her everything she needed to know (with the exception of temple of qarn, she asked me to finish it for her).
Anyway, the game teaches you your skills and flashes combos if you have them.
Not doing them removes from your own experience, so there is no logical reason you wouldn't automatically do it.

Perhaps I just have more faith in new players, than I do 'experienced' as they aren't jaded yet, like us lot.

You can't run expert roulette at 50, been a long time since you could.
And 50/60 is old content, so someone trying to learn is bombarded with people refusing to do mechanics, shouting at them they need new gear and they suck.

It's like a lucky dip depending on what sort of people you get in any dungeon, at any point in the game.

(quote was too long for word count so cut it down)

[Vidu]

@Vidu:

I see your point, and agree with some of it, but as i'm hovering over a new player(she's made a char on my account), I told her the exact same things.
The game has taught her everything she needed to know (with the exception of temple of qarn, she asked me to finish it for her).
Anyway, the game teaches you your skills and flashes combos if you have them.
Not doing them removes from your own experience, so there is no logical reason you wouldn't automatically do it.

Perhaps I just have more faith in new players, than I do 'experienced' as they aren't jaded yet, like us lot.

You can't run expert roulette at 50, been a long time since you could.
And 50/60 is old content, so someone trying to learn is bombarded with people refusing to do mechanics, shouting at them they need new gear and they suck.

It's like a lucky dip depending on what sort of people you get in any dungeon, at any point in the game.

(quote was too long for word count so cut it down)

Its not true that the game flashes all combos in your face - thats only true for melees and tanks. Casters and bards need to figure out how to do their rotations. A bard needs to realise how important their DoTs are. A BLM needs to learn how to handle their ice/fire-mechanic. Healers need to figure out which spell to use in which situation - for example that cure 3 isnt simply a stronger heal than cure 2 but rather an AoE-heal. The game has tutorials for this and tooltips but a lot of people dont seem to read them or bother to learn how to play.
I'd agree that there is no logical reason for someone not to read tooltips and tutorials and learn how to play their class because that normally adds to the enjoyment of the game for themself. However that seems to be our stance - "Playing how I want" means for me: Playing to the best of my ability and the ability of my class.
To someone else it can easly mean "Jumping around in a swimsuit" or "Pressing the button that gives the most flashy animation".

Its not that I dont have faith in new players - I've encountered a lot of great ones! Those who didnt needed advice at all, those who were open to it and took it and even those who asked for advice and were happy to get some. I've got very fond memories of those kind of runs.
I have however horrible memories of runs with people with the "You dont pay my sub" and "I play how I want"-attitude. I am not going to explain why thats so bad again.

I also mentioned that my example of a tank not using flash in expert roulette was extreme. It wasnt supposed to be taken literally. But I shouldnt have to ask a tank to use flash (or their respective other move) in any content after Haukke Manor.
I agree that no one should be yelled at - but no one should get a free pass at everything either. If someones gear isnt up to the content, there is nothing wrong with poiting that out. If someone needs to improve, there is nothing wrong with pointing that out. But honestly both are things that shouldnt happen anymore at somepoint - that point being somewhat past level 50. Even if they're a new person, even if they're new to MMOs even... they should grasp basic things like the need to gear up and understanding their skills.

Ask yourself: If everyone "played like they wanted to", aka: if everyone played subpar, not in appropriate gear, not using the right skills... would you get through the dungeon? In most cases you would not. And thats why no one gets the free pass of "Play how you want".

I have a lot of faith in new people. I also have a lot of faith in people offering advice in a decent manner.
I dont have any faith in people yelling - wether thats yelling "You suck!" at a new person or yelling "You dont pay my sub, I play how I want!"

(also: editing your post lets you get around the 1000 character limit)

[Kaldaka]

Its not true that the game flashes all combos in your face - thats only true for melees and tanks. Casters and bards need to figure out how to do their rotations. A bard needs to realise how important their DoTs are. A BLM needs to learn how to handle their ice/fire-mechanic. Healers need to figure out which spell to use in which situation - for example that cure 3 isnt simply a stronger heal than cure 2 but rather an AoE-heal. The game has tutorials for this and tooltips but a lot of people dont seem to read them or bother to learn how to play.
I'd agree that there is no logical reason for someone not to read tooltips and tutorials and learn how to play their class because that normally adds to the enjoyment of the game for themself. However that seems to be our stance - "Playing how I want" means for me: Playing to the best of my ability and the ability of my class.
To someone else it can easly mean "Jumping around in a swimsuit" or "Pressing the button that gives the most flashy animation".

Its not that I dont have faith in new players - I've encountered a lot of great ones! Those who didnt needed advice at all, those who were open to it and took it and even those who asked for advice and were happy to get some. I've got very fond memories of those kind of runs.
I have however horrible memories of runs with people with the "You dont pay my sub" and "I play how I want"-attitude. I am not going to explain why thats so bad again.

I also mentioned that my example of a tank not using flash in expert roulette was extreme. It wasnt supposed to be taken literally. But I shouldnt have to ask a tank to use flash (or their respective other move) in any content after Haukke Manor.
I agree that no one should be yelled at - but no one should get a free pass at everything either. If someones gear isnt up to the content, there is nothing wrong with poiting that out. If someone needs to improve, there is nothing wrong with pointing that out. But honestly both are things that shouldnt happen anymore at somepoint - that point being somewhat past level 50. Even if they're a new person, even if they're new to MMOs even... they should grasp basic things like the need to gear up and understanding their skills.

Ask yourself: If everyone "played like they wanted to", aka: if everyone played subpar, not in appropriate gear, not using the right skills... would you get through the dungeon? In most cases you would not. And thats why no one gets the free pass of "Play how you want".

I have a lot of faith in new people. I also have a lot of faith in people offering advice in a decent manner.
I dont have any faith in people yelling - wether thats yelling "You suck!" at a new person or yelling "You dont pay my sub, I play how I want!"

(also: editing your post lets you get around the 1000 character limit)

I completely forgot about bard, much to my shame since I've played it for years now :S
I can't speak about melee, I have an honest hate for them, and can never judge if someone is doing it badly or not. As a healer, I figure if I'm not tanking, and the dps arn't tanking - the tanks are fine. DPS, well, as long as they dodge AOE's (yes, I'm looking at you, dragoons!) then I again don't have a problem with them.
Casters however, namely blackmage and redmage, the game is very thorough with its self explanatory way of going about things (with the exception of maybe the use of enochian).
Ah... I just remembered they implemented jump potions... yeh... our games ruined for good :/ those guys don't read... (i'm stereotyping, don't judge lol)

All this speed run mentality, and demand that you have the best gear based on your level rather than where you are at in the game, seriously bothers me.
Just yesterday, my mother (it's her playing the character) got snickered at for having i90 gear in crystal tower.
As long as she meets i-level requirements, she has as much right to be there as everyone else, not to mention she won't get tomestones without DOING the dungeons in the first place in order to upgrade.
The game was designed to be all inclusive, a lot of problems are with the players themselves, demanding people play like they do or not at all. That isn't how the game was designed.
Heck (i'm guilty of this too on a few occasions), people demanding others skip cut scenes so they can get out of their as quick as possible, or locking people out of boss fights, it is quite unfair, and a bit brutal. Waiting 10-30 seconds isn't going to ruin anyones day, unless they put a chicken in the oven, then it's their own fault.

(Thanks for that! I'm fairly sure this limit never used to be here, wonder why they added it... spammers maybe?)