Dear PLDs

[Aana]

I think your argument is weak.
While an unskilled player could be delusional in thinking they are skilled and that everyone else is the problem. An unskilled player could just as easily be delusional in thinking they are skilled and that most players are skilled because of how the other players perform comparatively. For example, a tank with terrible DPS may not think there are that many bad DPS players in the game because the bad DPS players are doing much more dps than the bad tank. An unskilled tank may pull so little almost all healers seem good or at least sufficient.

'Bad' is also subjective. The wall-to-wall dog section pull of Ala Mhigo presents a good example. One of the problems that can occur when attempting this pull is that the healer can be targeted by multiple AoEs, which forces them to move and stop hard-casting.
If this causes a wipe, who, if anyone, is bad?
The PLD could have covered the movement with clemency or possibly HG.
The WHM could have covered the movement with an insta-cast.
The RDM or BRD could have offered support
etc

You completely missed the point.

You think I haven't run with bad healers, or had bad aoe position luck, had good/bad players in my parties? I've been doing dungeons in this game for over 4 years. This has nothing to do with 'luck'. You cant do dungeons for 4 years and never run into a bad party. I've had some really bad/undergeared healers. I've had bad/undergeared DPS. I've had off days where I play poorly (or way back when I was also new at one point). Yet, somehow, as if by magic I rarely ever wipe in dungeons regardless of the party composition. If you do dungeons as a tank you have an obscene amount of control over the run. If you run as tank and routinely have parties 'so bad' that they wipe, then its you. If you are a DPS you are kinda stuck with whatever derpy healer/tank combo you get and theres not a ton a non-support DPS can do about it. But if you are the tank and keep running into 'bad groups' that just make you wipe, then take a look in the mirror. You are the one person with the most control in how the run will go. If they constantly go poorly that points to 1 place.

[347SPECTRE]

^^^^That's 99% true. But there are times when you can do everything with near perfection and still wipe due to the healer screwing up.

[Aana]

^^^^That's 99% true. But there are times when you can do everything with near perfection and still wipe due to the healer screwing up.

Oh absolutely. I did not say I NEVER wiped in 4 years. But if 99% of the time it works, then is the 1% it doesn't really some healer DPS epidemic? Nah. Its just 1 particularly bad player or 1 particularly bad day for an otherwise fine healer.

But if you happen to be a tank and wiping seems commonplace, then you should really look inwards before blaming outwards. There is a whole lot you can do as the puller and primary source of mitigation to prevent wipes. You control the size of the pulls and how much mitigation you use. Just because the healer cast 1 gcd of DPS and you die doesn't automatically mean its the healers fault. If your situation was that precarious then theres a good chance you had a role in making it that razor thin.

[winsock]

Yet, somehow, as if by magic I rarely ever wipe in dungeons regardless of the party composition.

What I am saying is your claim is weak, for reasons such as:
1) you dont clearly define "good" and "bad" healers
2) the only measurement you're using is the an undefined frequency of wipes.
3) you aren't taking into account other negative factors such as pulling small or under-pulling

Here are some examples of why the items above break your argument:
1) (For the sake of thread irony: ) If someone defines a bad healer as a healer who would heal a tank when they are near full hp, I run into them fairly frequently.

2) If the healer has cure II as an option, but decides cure I is the way to go when the tank makes a large pull and a wipe occurs, it is the healer's fault. It doesnt matter how often it happens.

3) If the tank prevents a wipe from occurring by breaking a section into multiple pulls because he recognized the healer was bad, the healer is still bad. wipes arent the only thing that matters.
Likewise, if the tank is constantly underpulling, that doesnt mean the healer is good, it means the tank is bad.