Why the hate with endgame fights?

[Okamimaru]

Lakshmi ex, susano ex, and shinryu ex, all have their own gimmicks... lakshmi is about using vril to reduce damage/effects, susano is your classic spread and stack, and shinryu is like thordan ex (throw all the stuff at you).... comparing them is like apples oranges and grapes.... compare them only to their base fights... maybe we need a nm/hm/ex trials again...

[CosmicKirby]

Fun would be endgame that an entire FC can do, with more than eight people and not reliant on a single boss's pattern dancing. Fun would actually be some variation in group comp and tactics, maybe even using all that useless CC we have to stage enemies and making tanks have real offtank duties that require tank stance and judgment on which mobs to tackle next.

Can you actually use examples of your ideas here? There was CC/kiting/more in-depth Off tank adds back in Coil, they really weren't as noteworthy as you might thing. Most of the old raids in WoW similarly did such things. It usually amounts to some players gaining a new assigned role that really isn't as fun as you might hope.

Tanking and Healing need significant reworks if they want to adjust the damage dealing meta. Throughputs are too high and active mitigation comes mostly through cooldowns that aren't reliant upon stances.

FFXI Byakko: get your endgame FC cleared and able to visit an entirely seperate zone called Sky, and navigate its dangers to get the item to pop the god Byakko, who himself was part of chain of Gods all linked together to summon the big boss Kirin. The zone was actually open to other players, whether leveling (beastmasters) or getting other pops. The fight used your entire FC and had room for players of all level of skill.

So, you WANT very LARGE swathes of content tied behind difficult fights? I thought many people were not wanting this, complaining that Coil was story locked or that extra versions of fights were Savage only?

Spoilers: Any fight in any MMO ever that had 'room for players of all skills' are pretty bad. Doing such a difficult task usually requires:
1.) The boss has so much health and there's basically no cap to the amount of players you can bring, so you just bring everyone with a pulse (Ala WoW 40 mans)
2.) "Everyone contributing" includes people who supply the raid. If you want to make this feel more worthwhile, you start adding virtually mandatory and long farming requirements. IE consumables or gear that's so useful or potentially even required that for every X hours of attempts you need Y hours of farming for materials. This was all of Vanilla WoW, it was harsh and required far, far more hours to actually raid. Know what you're asking for here.

FFXIV Byakko. Take five minutes to unlock a circular arena with one boss that only 8 people can enter. Beat on the boss for a week till you get his pattern, then either do it a little more to get a weapon that may last you 3-4 weeks, or do it till your sick of it to get maybe a 1-3% chance at a mount. Everybody dps's, and tanks or heals as little as possible.

"Tanking or healing as little as possible" is called efficiency. The more picky the requirements are on efficiency, the harder a fight is. Is the itemization and loot tables for primals bad? I'd mostly agree. But the way they're handled is pretty above average as far as MMORPG raid bosses goes.

The harder normal content gets, the more likely players will do it in statics, and vote abandon over trying to get it done. If you do trial roulette a bunch, you know people tend to do this on trials as it is; I've joined many in progress as tank.

Right, which is why I'm curious as to your suggestions above. FF11 and Vanilla WoW were certainly rewarding in that time and effort were weighed more heavily than raw performance, but this comes at a very significant time-cost for most players, which really isn't a popular trend these days. (See: any complaints of Relic Weapons)

I'm more of an advocate for 3 tiers of difficult for endgame. As of now, we have a hodgepodge of WoW Normal/LFR for our one 'Normal" difficulty. And our Savage difficulty is somewhere bouncing between "Heroic/Mythic". The problem only made worse by the hard limit of 4-6 bosses per patch at most.

[Ayer2015]

I haven't come across people complaining about Savage/EX content existing in the game. That said, FF14 was always considered to be a super casual MMO, and has a much larger player base which fits that definition. All of the non-standard content which has been implemented so far (Ultimate, Rival Wings), in addition to no 4.1 relic having been added, has really left a void in content for casual players. We were promised more content with fewer dungeons being made during 4.x, yet that content is geared toward very specific, and small, segments of the community.

[Ayer2015]

To be frank? People are entitled and lazy. There's really not much else to it. They don't want to do the work but they want what ever doing the work would earn them.

Not sure about you, but I play games for fun, not work. I can go out and get paid for work.

[ViolaCrossfire]

Not sure about you, but I play games for fun, not work. I can go out and get paid for work.

[KaivaC]

Not sure about you, but I play games for fun, not work. I can go out and get paid for work.

So....basically, you're pretty much fine with going through the whole game Netflixing while hardly paying attention? Are you the type that dislikes being challenged in optional content? Besides, there's only so much the devs can add every 3-4 months when the casual base just eats through everything in just a few days. Part of that is on the devs for making things easy like that, part of that is on the player base for not going in moderation.

[Bobs]

Rage timers are fairly lame. Especially in Omega Savage, it's around 10 min.

As soon as that rage timer is hit the blaming starts up. People start throwing in parse results and people drop out or are kicked. It becomes a hate mess real fast. All because the game decided to get board with you.

It's arbitrary and is most likely what has lead to all the hate in SB.

[KaivaC]

Rage timers are fairly lame. Especially in Omega Savage, it's around 10 min.

As soon as that rage timer is hit the blaming starts up. People start throwing in parse results and people drop out or are kicked. It becomes a hate mess real fast. All because the game decided to get board with you.

It's arbitrary and is most likely what has lead to all the hate in SB.

I call BS on that. You actually need enrage because you're not supposed to take ages killing a boss...if all trials didn't have an enrage, everybody would have a clear on these fights because all healers have to do is just rez everyone. Besides, if I recall, you'll get close to enrage timer almost every time with Shinryu Ex. The end of the fight is literally a huge DPS check.

[ChaoticCrimson]

I call BS on that. You actually need enrage because you're not supposed to take ages killing a boss...if all trials didn't have an enrage, everybody would have a clear on these fights because all healers have to do is just rez everyone. Besides, if I recall, you'll get close to enrage timer almost every time with Shinryu Ex. The end of the fight is literally a huge DPS check.

I'd also like to add that enrage is actually pretty useful for progression. If you can survive until enrage, you know you've seen all the boss's mechanics. From there you and your party know what to expect, and can begin making adjustments to improve from there. It's all part of the challenge and learning how to get better.

[Vaer]

Rage timers are fairly lame. Especially in Omega Savage, it's around 10 min.

As soon as that rage timer is hit the blaming starts up. People start throwing in parse results and people drop out or are kicked. It becomes a hate mess real fast. All because the game decided to get board with you.

It's arbitrary and is most likely what has lead to all the hate in SB.

Enrage timers are there as gear checks, to punish a lot of mistakes and to make sure you don't cheese the fight with 2 tanks and 6 healers even if you take the entire lockout to clear it. I feel like that would be more lame. Also, enrages have been around since ARR.