Why the hate with endgame fights?

[RaijinSupreme]

Why do yall keep going baack and forth and baaack and forth and BACCK AND forth with this person, trying to prove to one.....ONE person the validity of savage content???

Let’s simply look at the facts here.

Regardless of any one person's dissenting opinion, savage content has been a complete success in this game, even to the point that devs felt it was necessary to create a fight that’s harder than savage content. Its existence has already been proven worthy and welcomed, and it isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

If she don’t like it, she don’t have to, and not a single essay that you write to her is going to change her opinion, or force her to stop giving her opinion, and at this point, y’all are just going in circles.

So instead of spending hours upon hours with her, try talking to someone who’s actually willing to listen to what you guys have to say.

[Dualgunner]

Why do yall keep going

Probably similar reason you felt the need to ask this question, a similar reason she keeps replying and a similar reason you felt the need to convince people to ignore Riyah. Nothing will change but there is that urge to keep posting on the off-chance something changes someone's mind.

But a lot of you don't understand casual content at all. Not enough to understand what increasing difficulty means. I know what I need to do when I get into savage, and Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement.

Remember kids, it's pro-parsers who are the elitist jerks who look down on how others play the game. It's the raiders who turn up their noses at how others play and enjoy the game. Surely if some anti-parser non-raider went and beat savage, all of those forum scrubs would shut up. Maybe someone who really understood what casual content is.

[RiyahArp]

Remember kids, it's pro-parsers who are the elitist jerks who look down on how others play the game. It's the raiders who turn up their noses at how others play and enjoy the game. Surely if some anti-parser non-raider went and beat savage, all of those forum scrubs would shut up. Maybe someone who really understood what casual content is.

Im not the one who harps on savage needing to be made easier, and i said that because i'm annoyed at how i can make serious arguments about how difficulty might affect the playerbase in harmful ways and end up talking to a brick wall who doesn't get PEOPLE QUIT OVER THIS. And i don't care about how raiders need to justify their not toxicness, i'm also annoyed because everytime they talk on forums, they always are talking crap about how easy the game is and how they HAVE to change it for whatever reason, whether its forcing parsers and the whole fflogs culture on the playerbase, or upping casual content's difficulty despite the game actually working; raiders can do savage and others don't need to.

I push back hard because i played hard mmos, and no it doesn't solve anything to make the leveling experience harder. you just wind up getting the players out of the game entirely, not boost endgame participation or skill. And the harder you make it, the more raiders will complain because it's never enough for them; we had people say git gud on forums even with midas or gordias when they were relevant, and at one point on reddit they were talking about a JP style blacklist of players. if they make it harder, in two months the raiders will be back to complaining again that farm parties still suck and duty finder still has ice mages.

As for arrogant, whatever. I don't like people who don't think deeply about the changes they propose and handwave or ignore bad stuff. i hate forum culture and how it reinforces bad idea or has no historical knowledge of their own game.

[Dualgunner]

Im not the one who harps on savage needing to be made easier, and i said that because i'm annoyed at how i can make serious arguments about how difficulty might affect the playerbase in harmful ways and end up talking to a brick wall who doesn't get PEOPLE QUIT OVER THIS. And i don't care about how raiders need to justify their not toxicness, i'm also annoyed because everytime they talk on forums, they always are talking crap about how easy the game is and how they HAVE to change it for whatever reason

Don't forget to respond to Oscura. I'm the low-hanging fruit here :P

People also quit over boredom because the game provides them nothing. People quit because they couldn't get their housing. People quit because their friends quit. People quit because the game is too hard. People quit because crafting's new requirements were borderline unreasonable. People quit for a variety of reasons, and as previously noted, they quit both because the game is too easy and the game is too hard. There will never be a world in which nobody is quitting this game, period.

I'd like to think the people on the forums who complain about the game's ease complain because they enjoy the game's combat system, and see a lot of possible depth in it that could be explored but not a lot in the game really asks anything of those deep and complex game mechanics to be used. To them it could be seen as getting a super high end computer with the best components money can buy...only to use it playing pong. It's frustrating because there's so much more a machine like that is capable of.

When people ask for "more difficult" content, I think the major disconnect is they don't want content that is more difficult, they want more content that is difficult. Nobody's asking for Gordias again, but we are asking for more than four to seven instances every other patch, and everything else is mind numbing.

I push back hard because i played hard mmos, and no it doesn't solve anything to make the leveling experience harder. you just wind up getting the players out of the game entirely, not boost endgame participation or skill.

Which MMOs? Was difficult content the core reason people were dropping out? Were there perhaps other problems you weren't considering, but were only paying attention to the difficult content?

And the harder you make it, the more raiders will complain because it's never enough for them; we had people say git gud on forums even with midas or gordias when they were relevant, and at one point on reddit they were talking about a JP style blacklist of players. if they make it harder, in two months the raiders will be back to complaining again that farm parties still suck and duty finder still has ice mages.

Do you think it's possible they were joking? Git gud is a meme, after all, and Gordias especially was a stressful bout of raids. I wouldn't put it past using git gud as a joke to relieve some of that stress. As well, we never did get that JP style blacklist, so it's obvious nobody ever got pushed to the point of making it.

As for arrogant, whatever. I don't like people who don't think deeply about the changes they propose and handwave or ignore bad stuff.

So far the only "bad stuff" you said would happen already does, already has, and never will stop, happening. Even more, it happens both for the reason of things being too difficult and for the reason of things being too easy.

i hate forum culture and how it reinforces bad idea or has no historical knowledge of their own game.

I hope you realize that, even as you say this, you're a part of that forum culture.

[KaivaC]

There is variation between expansions but the Charybdis in O1 is the same as in O1S. Akh Morn in Shinryu normal is the same as in the extreme mode (although less damaging). We already get to see some mechanics in normal modes of the same bosses and even get visual ground indicators to learn to dodge better (Clamp, Earth Shakers, Icicles). If we assume the normal modes aren't enough to train players for savage/extreme, I don't see how dungeon trash is going to do it any better. The idea of harder trash is appealing to me after doing high PotD floors but it's not the same as fighting a boss and it will never train people for boss fights as well as the normal versions of those bosses.

I haven't forgot about you, I promise

I wouldn't exactly say harder trash as opposed to smarter trash. I like that normal/hard mode fights are essentially previews of their extreme modes. But I think that should, in a sense, extend to dungeons as well. It certainly won't prepare all players for extreme fights, but it does reinforce the basic idea of paying attention to what you're doing. I wouldn't mind seeing more debuffs during a hard mode dungeon run myself. The expert roulette should feel like an expert roulette...of course, incentives need to be adjusted and I have my own thoughts on that, but ideally, expert roulettes should be the spot where you are preparing for harder content.

Why do yall keep going baack and forth and baaack and forth and BACCK AND forth with this person, trying to prove to one.....ONE person the validity of savage content???

Let’s simply look at the facts here.

Regardless of any one person's dissenting opinion, savage content has been a complete success in this game, even to the point that devs felt it was necessary to create a fight that’s harder than savage content. Its existence has already been proven worthy and welcomed, and it isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

If she don’t like it, she don’t have to, and not a single essay that you write to her is going to change her opinion, or force her to stop giving her opinion, and at this point, y’all are just going in circles.

So instead of spending hours upon hours with her, try talking to someone who’s actually willing to listen to what you guys have to say.

Well...I did say this was an open discussion. And as far as I know, it still is. I have welcomed open opinions - yes, me and Riyah have been going back and forth for quite some time, but I don't view that as a bad thing. It's a debate. You've seen Presidential Debates, right? They engage in similar circular arguments throughout their three debates. We just happen to be passionate about our stances. Either we'll agree to disagree, or we'll find a middle ground.

[Reinha]

It certainly won't prepare all players for extreme fights, but it does reinforce the basic idea of paying attention to what you're doing.

I can agree with this. I want harder and more interesting dungeons too, but not for the idea that it would improve players. Just for the reason that it would be fun and encourage developing different kinds of skills than boss fights do, such as knowing when and what to interrupt/stun and put to sleep or kiting and LoS pulling. If MSQ dungeons stayed easier but each new optional hard mode dungeon was actually hard, we would have a good balance of challenge and still letting all kinds of players continue the story. A difficult Aurum Vale HM would be first on my dungeon wish list.