Why the hate with endgame fights?

[RiyahArp]

Palace of the Dead

Floors 120+ disapprove your entire stance.

Those bosses are easy, the issue with 120+ that wipes you is random adds on the floor there. If you go in with a 4 man party with an actual healer, every boss is trivial for the most part after a few tries. The trash there is just tuned that you can't take more than one easily if at all, and the stupid mode literally forces you to take an hour or two in between tries because of the inability to continue from the same floor.

I also find it odd you seem to have all the answers while we simply "don't get it." Where are your Savage clears? How do you know so much about the differences yet have no experience to back up such an opinion?

Because the mode is understandable, its just a matter of whether or not you want to do it with the lack of incentives it offers. If you try any hard content at all you see the difference right away, and i have done enough overall to evaluate it; i just don't do pure savage often over stuff like coil or ex trials, and I hate farming content. That doesn't mean its this mystical crap that only people who complete it know; you can watch a video and have the whole fight laid out in a timeline for you. if you did coil and pay attention about it, you get how mechanics work at a hard level; after that its whether or not its something you like to do or want to do.

But a lot of you don't understand casual content at all. Not enough to understand what increasing difficulty means. I know what I need to do when I get into savage, and Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement. But I don't think you get what making stuff harder means to the playerbase.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Those bosses are easy, the issue with 120+ that wipes you is random adds on the floor there. If you go in with a 4 man party with an actual healer, every boss is trivial for the most part after a few tries. The trash there is just tuned that you can't take more than one easily if at all, and the stupid mode literally forces you to take an hour or two in between tries because of the inability to continue from the same floor.

The fact you can wipe to random adds gives PotD a leg up on dungeons, where you have to be AFK to wipe on a pack with six mobs or less. It's almost like you actually to... wait for it now: pay attention! A novel concept, I know, but considering how dungeons and normal mode trials for the most part scarcely require a pulse. It's a small start. Regardless, that is only the foundation with which you build on. For dungeon specific examples, The Vault comes to mind. Even most leveling dungeons are relatively fine, though I wish they reinforced not tanking the entire room better. It's the "Expert" variation that falls apart. Doma Castle shouldn't be harder than Kugane Castle yet the former laughs at its supposed "Expert" counterpart.

[RiyahArp]

It doesn't really matter since no other endgame relies on you managing trash mobs so much, and this game gimps you in terms of crowd control so you don't even have the tools to do it beyond a certain point; if you get three roaming mobs in the hallways at that level, that's often it. If they want to make that more of an endgame, they'd need to get rid of mob cc resistance and change many of the jobs not to be focused on single target boss fighting with minor adds. The skills dont translate. Like there is no concept of staging mobs in this game; if you get three adds past the low levels, you need to aoe all three or burn one at time, because crowd control moves simply don't work on them. There is no real offtanking on any mob that hits hard enough; most mobs cut through dps HP like butter. POTD doesn't let you kite stuff. there's no real tactical gameplay like this except at a basic level.

As for expert stuff, no one is forced to do it. You can make it harder if you like, but the harder it gets, the less appealing it is to do. Feast is much harder than frontlines to do well in, and teaches you more about pvp I feel, but that same hardness makes it not attractive to many people. You'd have to force people to do it if the aim is to learn.

[KaivaC]

snip

Pretty sure I have literally said before that Omega Savage is my very first Savage content...

You can talk about timelines all you want, and start saying that you have a fight completely laid down...but I'd like to see you roll up into O3S and do it. Hell, just because at this point I want you prove that your point even has any merits, I'll even go into the same party with you. Because I can assure you that while some mechanics carry over into O3S from her normal fight, the full fight itself is a completely different beast. We know what we're asking when we say increasing difficulty. Once again, you pretty much disregard some of the suggestions I have made, and then countered with yet another extreme example.

There are plenty of things in Savage that could be introduced gradually. ...At this point, I'm not going to bother with an example because really, if you're just going to keep disregarding suggestions, then I'm just talking to blind eyes. If you're in a farm/parse party, then yes, you will need to maintain high DPS while playing at near-perfect levels because it is more efficient. You don't need super high DPS to clear O1S - O3S. You can clear with mediocre performance. I've been in plenty of parties where there were multiple deaths in all three of those fights, and we cleared with enough time (Shinryu Ex is a little bit of an exception because that last phase is a hard DPS check...it becomes either he dies or you die in the next 45 seconds or so).

[RaijinSupreme]

Why do yall keep going baack and forth and baaack and forth and BACCK AND forth with this person, trying to prove to one.....ONE person the validity of savage content???

Let’s simply look at the facts here.

Regardless of any one person's dissenting opinion, savage content has been a complete success in this game, even to the point that devs felt it was necessary to create a fight that’s harder than savage content. Its existence has already been proven worthy and welcomed, and it isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

If she don’t like it, she don’t have to, and not a single essay that you write to her is going to change her opinion, or force her to stop giving her opinion, and at this point, y’all are just going in circles.

So instead of spending hours upon hours with her, try talking to someone who’s actually willing to listen to what you guys have to say.

[Oscura]

Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement.

Why do you always get so personal about everything?

Are you really going to act all condescending again? You're talking as if you care so much about the player-base and what difficulty will do for them and how badly it will effect them, but then you step all over that same player-base and say "Savage isn't an achievement, you're not good at this game." ????
Oh wait, I'm sorry, you're still convinced that raiders exist on this echelon above normal humans and can't possibly understand them. We're not part of the player-base. How convenient for your argument.

Stop pretending you care about anyone but yourself when you make these posts.


It also has nothing to do with "achievement," it's just that it gets tiring for a lot of us, even those who haven't cleared Savage, to see you constantly go on and on about how easy it is, talk crap about it or ultimate, constantly assert they "know," how raiders act or what they want or "don't get." Someone who hasn't even spent a minute in a relevant raid tier clearing the content in a static or a PUG constantly talking down to people who actually took time and effort to gather seven others to run content with them. You look down on and talk so condescendingly to people who are even running Savage for their first tier or time, never having cleared a leg of Alexander or Coil when they were relevant.

Everything you say is brought about by ignorance and your own arrogance to constantly self-assert yourself under the guise of "but the player-base." Your horrible attitude insults those that play this game and attempt to do their best, regardless of level of skill or whether or not they are truly "raiders" in your eye. You always seem to ignore questions that are blatantly inconvenient for you, and you also ignore posters who do not fit your criteria of "raider," yet still disagree with you because even they can see how utterly close-minded you are.

tl;dr

Please go complete the Sigmascape Savage 1 through 4 next tier, I'd love to see it. Make sure to complete Ultimate too, that way you can really show everyone who's boss.

Why do yall keep going baack and forth and baaack and forth and BACCK AND forth with this person, trying to prove to one.....ONE person the validity of savage content???

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree with you but I greatly dislike arrogance from people who can't put their money where their mouth is.

[Dualgunner]

Why do yall keep going

Probably similar reason you felt the need to ask this question, a similar reason she keeps replying and a similar reason you felt the need to convince people to ignore Riyah. Nothing will change but there is that urge to keep posting on the off-chance something changes someone's mind.

But a lot of you don't understand casual content at all. Not enough to understand what increasing difficulty means. I know what I need to do when I get into savage, and Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement.

Remember kids, it's pro-parsers who are the elitist jerks who look down on how others play the game. It's the raiders who turn up their noses at how others play and enjoy the game. Surely if some anti-parser non-raider went and beat savage, all of those forum scrubs would shut up. Maybe someone who really understood what casual content is.

[RiyahArp]

Remember kids, it's pro-parsers who are the elitist jerks who look down on how others play the game. It's the raiders who turn up their noses at how others play and enjoy the game. Surely if some anti-parser non-raider went and beat savage, all of those forum scrubs would shut up. Maybe someone who really understood what casual content is.

Im not the one who harps on savage needing to be made easier, and i said that because i'm annoyed at how i can make serious arguments about how difficulty might affect the playerbase in harmful ways and end up talking to a brick wall who doesn't get PEOPLE QUIT OVER THIS. And i don't care about how raiders need to justify their not toxicness, i'm also annoyed because everytime they talk on forums, they always are talking crap about how easy the game is and how they HAVE to change it for whatever reason, whether its forcing parsers and the whole fflogs culture on the playerbase, or upping casual content's difficulty despite the game actually working; raiders can do savage and others don't need to.

I push back hard because i played hard mmos, and no it doesn't solve anything to make the leveling experience harder. you just wind up getting the players out of the game entirely, not boost endgame participation or skill. And the harder you make it, the more raiders will complain because it's never enough for them; we had people say git gud on forums even with midas or gordias when they were relevant, and at one point on reddit they were talking about a JP style blacklist of players. if they make it harder, in two months the raiders will be back to complaining again that farm parties still suck and duty finder still has ice mages.

As for arrogant, whatever. I don't like people who don't think deeply about the changes they propose and handwave or ignore bad stuff. i hate forum culture and how it reinforces bad idea or has no historical knowledge of their own game.

[Dualgunner]

Im not the one who harps on savage needing to be made easier, and i said that because i'm annoyed at how i can make serious arguments about how difficulty might affect the playerbase in harmful ways and end up talking to a brick wall who doesn't get PEOPLE QUIT OVER THIS. And i don't care about how raiders need to justify their not toxicness, i'm also annoyed because everytime they talk on forums, they always are talking crap about how easy the game is and how they HAVE to change it for whatever reason

Don't forget to respond to Oscura. I'm the low-hanging fruit here :P

People also quit over boredom because the game provides them nothing. People quit because they couldn't get their housing. People quit because their friends quit. People quit because the game is too hard. People quit because crafting's new requirements were borderline unreasonable. People quit for a variety of reasons, and as previously noted, they quit both because the game is too easy and the game is too hard. There will never be a world in which nobody is quitting this game, period.

I'd like to think the people on the forums who complain about the game's ease complain because they enjoy the game's combat system, and see a lot of possible depth in it that could be explored but not a lot in the game really asks anything of those deep and complex game mechanics to be used. To them it could be seen as getting a super high end computer with the best components money can buy...only to use it playing pong. It's frustrating because there's so much more a machine like that is capable of.

When people ask for "more difficult" content, I think the major disconnect is they don't want content that is more difficult, they want more content that is difficult. Nobody's asking for Gordias again, but we are asking for more than four to seven instances every other patch, and everything else is mind numbing.

I push back hard because i played hard mmos, and no it doesn't solve anything to make the leveling experience harder. you just wind up getting the players out of the game entirely, not boost endgame participation or skill.

Which MMOs? Was difficult content the core reason people were dropping out? Were there perhaps other problems you weren't considering, but were only paying attention to the difficult content?

And the harder you make it, the more raiders will complain because it's never enough for them; we had people say git gud on forums even with midas or gordias when they were relevant, and at one point on reddit they were talking about a JP style blacklist of players. if they make it harder, in two months the raiders will be back to complaining again that farm parties still suck and duty finder still has ice mages.

Do you think it's possible they were joking? Git gud is a meme, after all, and Gordias especially was a stressful bout of raids. I wouldn't put it past using git gud as a joke to relieve some of that stress. As well, we never did get that JP style blacklist, so it's obvious nobody ever got pushed to the point of making it.

As for arrogant, whatever. I don't like people who don't think deeply about the changes they propose and handwave or ignore bad stuff.

So far the only "bad stuff" you said would happen already does, already has, and never will stop, happening. Even more, it happens both for the reason of things being too difficult and for the reason of things being too easy.

i hate forum culture and how it reinforces bad idea or has no historical knowledge of their own game.

I hope you realize that, even as you say this, you're a part of that forum culture.

[KaivaC]

There is variation between expansions but the Charybdis in O1 is the same as in O1S. Akh Morn in Shinryu normal is the same as in the extreme mode (although less damaging). We already get to see some mechanics in normal modes of the same bosses and even get visual ground indicators to learn to dodge better (Clamp, Earth Shakers, Icicles). If we assume the normal modes aren't enough to train players for savage/extreme, I don't see how dungeon trash is going to do it any better. The idea of harder trash is appealing to me after doing high PotD floors but it's not the same as fighting a boss and it will never train people for boss fights as well as the normal versions of those bosses.

I haven't forgot about you, I promise

I wouldn't exactly say harder trash as opposed to smarter trash. I like that normal/hard mode fights are essentially previews of their extreme modes. But I think that should, in a sense, extend to dungeons as well. It certainly won't prepare all players for extreme fights, but it does reinforce the basic idea of paying attention to what you're doing. I wouldn't mind seeing more debuffs during a hard mode dungeon run myself. The expert roulette should feel like an expert roulette...of course, incentives need to be adjusted and I have my own thoughts on that, but ideally, expert roulettes should be the spot where you are preparing for harder content.

Why do yall keep going baack and forth and baaack and forth and BACCK AND forth with this person, trying to prove to one.....ONE person the validity of savage content???

Let’s simply look at the facts here.

Regardless of any one person's dissenting opinion, savage content has been a complete success in this game, even to the point that devs felt it was necessary to create a fight that’s harder than savage content. Its existence has already been proven worthy and welcomed, and it isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

If she don’t like it, she don’t have to, and not a single essay that you write to her is going to change her opinion, or force her to stop giving her opinion, and at this point, y’all are just going in circles.

So instead of spending hours upon hours with her, try talking to someone who’s actually willing to listen to what you guys have to say.

Well...I did say this was an open discussion. And as far as I know, it still is. I have welcomed open opinions - yes, me and Riyah have been going back and forth for quite some time, but I don't view that as a bad thing. It's a debate. You've seen Presidential Debates, right? They engage in similar circular arguments throughout their three debates. We just happen to be passionate about our stances. Either we'll agree to disagree, or we'll find a middle ground.