Why the hate with endgame fights?

[KaivaC]

I like the story, and I like some people in game. I like crafting and gathering on occasion, and I like being able to do various things without pressure as well as without serious group investment or reliance on pop timers.I like not beign forced to constantly farm gil for basic tasks. I liked diadem because emergency missions were fun, and it led to communal gathering as well as people actually interacting in an open world zone.

My anger is mostly because of three things.

-bad endgame content focusing on one hit kills and repeating single boss fights over and over.
-how stupid the community is about wanting stuff harder and harder despite how much that failed in HW.

Example, outside of Gordias. Because eventually, that was fixed by the devs. The thing is, myself, Sebazy, and others have all given prime examples of what we would like to see. But for whatever reason, you are not acknowledging our points. It's like you are stubbornly holding onto this notion that we have been suggesting that the difficulty needs to be immediately tuned way up, when we have merely been saying gradually increase the difficulty. I myself have said multiple times, increase difficulty, not with harder hitting mobs or more mobs, but with introduction of mechanics normally seen in savage fights. That does not mean, say in Fractal Continuum Hard Mode, the mobs need to drop our HP to 1 with Charbydis.

[RiyahArp]

The normal mode boss uses charybidis too yeesh. The difference is the follow up attack does 6k damage instead of 14k. They already use a lot of mechanics in general, you guys dont seem to get the big difference is that they one shot you and that they have an enrage. thats it. Literally thats it, virtually every normal mode fight uses a lot of mechanics, but they don't kill you so people complain, except for a few add phases. Some even do kill you; midas normal height correction does that for example. They can't add much more; without turning it into intro ex level content.

No one seems to get this. The only way you can make a mechanic hard is if failing it kills you, or if it will kill the whole party unless quick action is done. So when people talk about increasing difficulty, they tend to just be abstract about it. Especially when they say the one content that actually does this, shin hard, is still very easy.

if you want to seriously think about this, take one dungeon boss 60 and up, and tell me how you will make it harder. Like take the mol at the end of bardem's mettle. How will you make him gradually harder?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

if you want to seriously think about this, take one dungeon boss 60 and up, and tell me how you will make it harder. Like take the mol at the end of bardem's mettle. How will you make him gradually harder?

Palace of the Dead

Floors 120+ disapprove your entire stance. Only a few mechanics one-shot yet most, if not all, can be interrupted in some manner or another. Wait, crowd control abilities being useful? Whoever would have thought!

What higher floors of PotD does reinforce is tanks requiring proper cooldown usage, healers to actually heal and for DPS to focus on specific targets lest they trigger a high damaging AoE. Compare that to Kugane Castle, where the boss mechanics are so minuscule, you can literally ignore everything. Yojimbo doesn't even do 50% of your HP if you ignore the coins he tosses around. Try that back when Stone Vigil normal was relevant and you'd likely have wiped the party. Why do tanks have to pull 10+ mobs to actually feel like tanks? If I go into Bardem's Mettle and do single pulls, the healer may as well have a red icon because they'll never cast a single heal. I've tested just how pitiful dungeons are. A while back, I played "ignore the tank" in Great Gubal. I didn't cast a single heal—not even Regen—until the mega pull. Had I not been DPSing, I would have been completely useless.

Shinryu Normal is perfectly fine. The issue is nothing scales from it. Every boss, Hashmal included, are easier from Rabanastre. Susano/Lakshmi EX are debatably harder and all of Omega normal rolls over. Has it ever occurred to you the reason people struggled with Shinryu and its EX counterpart is because nothing prepared people for the sudden spike? Many of us claim the former isn't difficult because he really isn't. He just demands you actually pay attention to mechanics, which is how all content outside maybe side story stuff, should be. If the majority of content allows people to ignore mechanics, they'll continue to do so until the game presents a sudden wall where everything they have done prior stops working. You want an example of scaling difficulty?

Ravana - > Sophia -> Nidhogg - > Sephirot - > Thordan

Done in that order you begin with a reasonable yet not overly challenging entry Primal, move onto one that prioritizes mechanical awareness to one that deals high damage into one combining the prior two and finishing off with a bit of everything. Despite being easier, Ravana still demands you respect his mechanics until you start to outgear him. Sophia may not be a big step above him, but she reinforces the need to pay attention. That is how you scale difficulty. It doesn't always come in a direct buff to outgoing damage. Now compare Susano and Lakshmi to Shinryu. The gap between them is enormous.

I also find it odd you seem to have all the answers while we simply "don't get it." Where are your Savage clears? How do you know so much about the differences yet have no experience to back up such an opinion?

[RiyahArp]

Palace of the Dead

Floors 120+ disapprove your entire stance.

Those bosses are easy, the issue with 120+ that wipes you is random adds on the floor there. If you go in with a 4 man party with an actual healer, every boss is trivial for the most part after a few tries. The trash there is just tuned that you can't take more than one easily if at all, and the stupid mode literally forces you to take an hour or two in between tries because of the inability to continue from the same floor.

I also find it odd you seem to have all the answers while we simply "don't get it." Where are your Savage clears? How do you know so much about the differences yet have no experience to back up such an opinion?

Because the mode is understandable, its just a matter of whether or not you want to do it with the lack of incentives it offers. If you try any hard content at all you see the difference right away, and i have done enough overall to evaluate it; i just don't do pure savage often over stuff like coil or ex trials, and I hate farming content. That doesn't mean its this mystical crap that only people who complete it know; you can watch a video and have the whole fight laid out in a timeline for you. if you did coil and pay attention about it, you get how mechanics work at a hard level; after that its whether or not its something you like to do or want to do.

But a lot of you don't understand casual content at all. Not enough to understand what increasing difficulty means. I know what I need to do when I get into savage, and Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement. But I don't think you get what making stuff harder means to the playerbase.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Those bosses are easy, the issue with 120+ that wipes you is random adds on the floor there. If you go in with a 4 man party with an actual healer, every boss is trivial for the most part after a few tries. The trash there is just tuned that you can't take more than one easily if at all, and the stupid mode literally forces you to take an hour or two in between tries because of the inability to continue from the same floor.

The fact you can wipe to random adds gives PotD a leg up on dungeons, where you have to be AFK to wipe on a pack with six mobs or less. It's almost like you actually to... wait for it now: pay attention! A novel concept, I know, but considering how dungeons and normal mode trials for the most part scarcely require a pulse. It's a small start. Regardless, that is only the foundation with which you build on. For dungeon specific examples, The Vault comes to mind. Even most leveling dungeons are relatively fine, though I wish they reinforced not tanking the entire room better. It's the "Expert" variation that falls apart. Doma Castle shouldn't be harder than Kugane Castle yet the former laughs at its supposed "Expert" counterpart.

[RiyahArp]

It doesn't really matter since no other endgame relies on you managing trash mobs so much, and this game gimps you in terms of crowd control so you don't even have the tools to do it beyond a certain point; if you get three roaming mobs in the hallways at that level, that's often it. If they want to make that more of an endgame, they'd need to get rid of mob cc resistance and change many of the jobs not to be focused on single target boss fighting with minor adds. The skills dont translate. Like there is no concept of staging mobs in this game; if you get three adds past the low levels, you need to aoe all three or burn one at time, because crowd control moves simply don't work on them. There is no real offtanking on any mob that hits hard enough; most mobs cut through dps HP like butter. POTD doesn't let you kite stuff. there's no real tactical gameplay like this except at a basic level.

As for expert stuff, no one is forced to do it. You can make it harder if you like, but the harder it gets, the less appealing it is to do. Feast is much harder than frontlines to do well in, and teaches you more about pvp I feel, but that same hardness makes it not attractive to many people. You'd have to force people to do it if the aim is to learn.

[KaivaC]

snip

Pretty sure I have literally said before that Omega Savage is my very first Savage content...

You can talk about timelines all you want, and start saying that you have a fight completely laid down...but I'd like to see you roll up into O3S and do it. Hell, just because at this point I want you prove that your point even has any merits, I'll even go into the same party with you. Because I can assure you that while some mechanics carry over into O3S from her normal fight, the full fight itself is a completely different beast. We know what we're asking when we say increasing difficulty. Once again, you pretty much disregard some of the suggestions I have made, and then countered with yet another extreme example.

There are plenty of things in Savage that could be introduced gradually. ...At this point, I'm not going to bother with an example because really, if you're just going to keep disregarding suggestions, then I'm just talking to blind eyes. If you're in a farm/parse party, then yes, you will need to maintain high DPS while playing at near-perfect levels because it is more efficient. You don't need super high DPS to clear O1S - O3S. You can clear with mediocre performance. I've been in plenty of parties where there were multiple deaths in all three of those fights, and we cleared with enough time (Shinryu Ex is a little bit of an exception because that last phase is a hard DPS check...it becomes either he dies or you die in the next 45 seconds or so).

[Oscura]

Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement.

Why do you always get so personal about everything?

Are you really going to act all condescending again? You're talking as if you care so much about the player-base and what difficulty will do for them and how badly it will effect them, but then you step all over that same player-base and say "Savage isn't an achievement, you're not good at this game." ????
Oh wait, I'm sorry, you're still convinced that raiders exist on this echelon above normal humans and can't possibly understand them. We're not part of the player-base. How convenient for your argument.

Stop pretending you care about anyone but yourself when you make these posts.


It also has nothing to do with "achievement," it's just that it gets tiring for a lot of us, even those who haven't cleared Savage, to see you constantly go on and on about how easy it is, talk crap about it or ultimate, constantly assert they "know," how raiders act or what they want or "don't get." Someone who hasn't even spent a minute in a relevant raid tier clearing the content in a static or a PUG constantly talking down to people who actually took time and effort to gather seven others to run content with them. You look down on and talk so condescendingly to people who are even running Savage for their first tier or time, never having cleared a leg of Alexander or Coil when they were relevant.

Everything you say is brought about by ignorance and your own arrogance to constantly self-assert yourself under the guise of "but the player-base." Your horrible attitude insults those that play this game and attempt to do their best, regardless of level of skill or whether or not they are truly "raiders" in your eye. You always seem to ignore questions that are blatantly inconvenient for you, and you also ignore posters who do not fit your criteria of "raider," yet still disagree with you because even they can see how utterly close-minded you are.

tl;dr

Please go complete the Sigmascape Savage 1 through 4 next tier, I'd love to see it. Make sure to complete Ultimate too, that way you can really show everyone who's boss.

Why do yall keep going baack and forth and baaack and forth and BACCK AND forth with this person, trying to prove to one.....ONE person the validity of savage content???

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree with you but I greatly dislike arrogance from people who can't put their money where their mouth is.

[Sebazy]

But a lot of you don't understand casual content at all. Not enough to understand what increasing difficulty means. I know what I need to do when I get into savage, and Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement. But I don't think you get what making stuff harder means to the playerbase.

So basically, you ignored everything I said back there right?

The problem isn't that we don't understand casual content. It's that you don't understand or are simply ignoring what we are saying.

My anger is mostly because of three things.

-bad endgame content focusing on one hit kills and repeating single boss fights over and over.
-how stupid the community is about wanting stuff harder and harder despite how much that failed in HW.
-SE not changing the formula in one bit from HW in terms of endgame content.

I'm not sure if you realise, but the bit in bold is exactly what we are arguing for as well.

You go on to talk about people struggling even in Shinryu story mode. Why do you think that is? I don't think it's because it's too hard, because frankly it isn't. IMHO I think it's because there's absolutely nothing else in the current endgame leading up to that to prepare them for it. This step up in difficulty is even more apparent once you go up to Shinryu EX. This has been the case since HW (As you've observed) and this is why we are kicking off about this as well.

if you want to seriously think about this, take one dungeon boss 60 and up, and tell me how you will make it harder. Like take the mol at the end of bardem's mettle. How will you make him gradually harder?

Once again, you're not listening to anything we say are you?

Let me try and put this in a manner in which you might actually take note:

LEVELING DUNGEON BOSSES ARE *NOT* THE PROBLEM

EXPERT ROULETTE DUNGEONS BOSSES *ARE* THE PROBLEM

/cough, I hate shouting, it's so rude, but sometimes a Lala's got to do what a Lala's got to do =(

Your example of the boss at the end of Bardam's is a decent boss and you know it, thus why you used it as an example to try and further your agenda. It's dangerous both through decent mechanics and solid damage output that you can't really trivialise it through gear thanks to level sync. This is not a boss that anyone here is suggesting needs to be tuned, so you can stop trying to use that as an extreme example for your silly little forum games already thanks.

Now for a comparison, lets look at the bosses in Kugane Castle. It takes multiple failures coupled with a sleeping healer before there's any risk of anyone dieing. The only way I've seen anyone die in a manner that a simple Regen couldn't keep them alive through everything is on the Ninja boss with the tile flip move, it is possible to get hit by both tile flips and that will kill you. But that's also quite an impressive (and amusing) trick to pull off, hardly a fair example.

No one seems to get this. The only way you can make a mechanic hard is if failing it kills you, or if it will kill the whole party unless quick action is done. So when people talk about increasing difficulty, they tend to just be abstract about it.

It's quotes like this that make me believe that you literally have no grasp on what you are talking about.

Hang on, let me get the 72pt bold marker out again, I think it's needed here:

MAKE THE MECHANIC *EASIER* TO ACHIEVE BUT ALSO MORE PUNISHING WHEN YOU FAIL IT

Believe it or not, there's actually more to an encounter's difficulty than how much raw damage it throws at you. For example, if we take Hashmal's extreme edge attack and simply make the cast time several seconds slower, it would become noticeably easier despite still being close to a one shot. The endgame in ARR was far more simplistic than what we have now, it certainly wasn't a pushover by any stretch. Titan HM and Susano EX are similarly challenging encounters when you consider how they were when they were relevant fresh content. One is simplistic but highly punishing, the other is far more complex but also much more forgiving at the same time.

This same mentality has carried over to dungeons in an even more extreme manner. Have you ever seen the WaterPony boss at the start of Skalla done entirely cleanly with no debuffs getting thrown around? I'm fairly certain I haven't. It's actually pretty challenging for everyone to place their puddle and position their tether in a manner that they're not going to hit themselves or the rest of the group. But then it just doesn't matter so very few people bother with it. It's pretty routine to see 5-6+ debuff stacks and it just doesn't do enough for anyone to care.

Until you grasp the various nuances of encounter design, then I'm afraid your knee jerk comments and cherry picked examples hold no water with me.

I never said it was easy, i said it wasn't an achievement. That is I don't value people who beat it any more highly than others. and yeah, ill back it up. But then I don't value people who make me run through hoops much either.

I'll look forward to seeing the log.

[Nora_of_Mira]

This same mentality has carried over to dungeons in an even more extreme manner. Have you ever seen the WaterPony boss at the start of Skalla done entirely cleanly with no debuffs getting thrown around? I'm fairly certain I haven't. It's actually pretty challenging for everyone to place their puddle and position their tether in a manner that they're not going to hit themselves or the rest of the group. But then it just doesn't matter so very few people bother with it. It's pretty routine to see 5-6+ debuff stacks and it just doesn't do enough for anyone to care.

Until you grasp the various nuances of encounter design, then I'm afraid your knee jerk comments and cherry picked examples hold no water with me.

As someone that farmed Skalla for ages, I can attest to this. I never bothered to do that fight correctly because I never died no matter what I did. It's faceroll and not punishing.