Why the hate with endgame fights?

[Dzian]

If you think people would enjoy "ice floor, the boss," you'd be in for a big disappointment. I can't think of another duty people would abandon more in roulette.

Thing is Sebazy is right. there is no difficulty curve in this game. at expert level you can just ignore so much of it. yojimbo in kugane castle. you can literally stand there go make a coffee while you let daigoro get ALL THE GOLD. and you still will NOT die. It's essentially impossible to fail that mechanic.

There is no difficulty curve in this game its just one great long horizontal line. that is then met by a sheer vertical cliff when it comes to savage / ultimate. and I thinks that's where the hate comes from. players clear normal and think they're ready for savage but they're a million miles away.

what makes it worse is yoshis attempt to close the skill gap between players was done backwards.. instead of bringing the skill floor up what Yoshi did was lower the skill ceiling by making creator and omega easier. this didn't work though cos those top players just punched straight through the ceiling and kept going up...

If they raised the floor as the game progressed you'd likely find more people willing to take on harder contents as they'd feel more prepared for it. and also likely find player retention is better because clearing things would actually feel more satisfying and rewarding. where as clearing a fight its actually impossible to fail. doesn't really feel satisfying at all.

Here's a thread I did ages ago with some really cheesy mspaint charts to illustrate

I think it highlights the rather large issue the game has with its current difficulty curve or rather lack of. and also shows why so many players are always crying for nerfs on even the simplest of things.

the menagerie for example was never hard. the main problem people had was they hadn't done there 70 quest and got there 290 gear. some i'd seen in there were still in 270 with a few random dungeon drops in odd slots..

so imo one of the biggest problems with hard (high end) content is not the difficult of it. but rather the absolute lack of difficulty everything that leads up to it is.

the other issue is powercreep. and rewards being outdated so fast it just isn't worth getting them. but that aain also factors in the difficulty curve.. my i330 samurai is more than geared enough to clear everything escept maybe ultimate so there's just no need for 340. especially when 4.2 will have 350 entry gear.

I generally think if the difficulty curve was actually a curve and promoted player growth and improvement then a lot of people would find the endgame fights a lot more approachable and fun. instead of finding them like basically smashing there face against a brick wall

[KaldeaSahaline]

I would love to see all the hate if SE ever makes every savage,ex as hard as ultimate.

Would make for a nice Sunday afternoon with popcorn.

What exactly is the purpose of this post? I don't think a single person has advocated for anything of the sort.

[RiyahArp]

I generally think if the difficulty curve was actually a curve and promoted player growth and improvement then a lot of people would find the endgame fights a lot more approachable and fun. instead of finding them like basically smashing there face against a brick wall

I want you to imagine susano ex, but with the following differences.

-everyone is forced to do him if they want to do something as simple as access tomes or the 24 man raid.
-he pops up randomly in trial roulette and gives you all of 60 tomes and no weapon for a reward.
-half the people don't watch a video, and every trial is a learning party.

What do you think would happen, given how much people complain about him when he's completely optional and doesn't gate content? Think about that when you talk about difficulty curves.

Right? Cause getting 4 wins for enough to earn a body piece or weapon (at 4000 Wolf Marks, the most expensive the gear gets now) is like, impossible. /s

except it costs something like 16k to get a set of garo glamour. One set, with something like ten sets that are unique total. And because of that, garo gear is also in the gold saucer, surprise surprise. The original pvp armor only escapes this because after i110, they forced it to all be archetypes instead of jobs with the exception of DRG. If you have 3 or more jobs leveled, we're starting to talk a serious amount of matches.

[KaivaC]

snip

Again, you are taking things to the extreme. Why do you keep on doing this? From a purely casual perspective, how do you justify going from Ala Mhigo to Susano Ex? A lot of us have done this...but regardless of Susano Ex being literally one of the easiest Ex trials (certainly easier than Lakshmi Ex released with him, mostly for tanks), that's still a fairly significant jump in difficulty because casual players need to pay attention so they don't end up killing the entire party. Shinryu is enough of a gate as it is. I don't want to speak for Sebazy, but I believe the point he's getting at, hopefully, is that the prior dungeons leading up to here should've been slowly increasing difficulty, slowly and gradually introducing some of the mechanics you will see in the high end duties.

[RiyahArp]

Again, you are taking things to the extreme.

Kaiva, what do you think "raising the difficulty curve" means? If you think royal menagerie is easy, the only things harder above it are o1s and susano/lakshimi. O1s and lakshimi are too gimmick laden to be good teaching experiences. If your goal is to raise difficulty to bridge between casual and savage, that 70 trial is going to have to be like an ex trial, with shinryu hard pushed down to about 63, and probably the easier ex trials at 60 taking the place of thordan, right down to 50 ex trials ending the main scenario. You can't raise dungeon difficulty much because you'd massively slow them down, either via trash or bosses, and there's a limit to how hard they can be made when you don't have your full kit. Look at Brayflox hard final boss for an example-the bombs can be really hard for people to deal with if they don't have a point blank circle aoe.

Just annoying, no one ever really thinks about what changes actually mean for players in real practice.

[

At this point I am convinced that Riyah just want the game to play itself for him...my God, Wolf Marks are just brain-dead easy to get and people are just begging for SE to release some more stuffs for them to spend on, because we are capping them all the time. Like, I had to burn my surplus Marks on sets for jobs I had not even leveled...and now I have to burn them on older sets, even though I don't like the looks on some of them.

I have every single piece of garo gear available, and I had them when you could use them as leveling gear. I have all that I want from it save for mounts or minions, and that's because those take on average 200-300 matches played to get one.

My point was that if you wanted to gear up your jobs, and you had more than one of them (i have every single one at 60, and all but two at 70) and you dislike pvp, its a lot more time. Its adds up fast, and most people who think its easy just play an awful lot because they like the mode. its not "oh its only 4k wolf marks" for some people, it can be 144,000 for all that they want. Then there are the minions, the orchestrion roles, etc.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

My point was that if you wanted to gear up your jobs, and you had more than one of them (i have every single one at 60, and all but two at 70) and you dislike pvp, its a lot more time. Its adds up fast, and most people who think its easy just play an awful lot because they like the mode. its not "oh its only 4k wolf marks" for some people, it can be 144,000 for all that they want. Then there are the minions, the orchestrion roles, etc.

There it is.

And yes. It is "only 4K Wolf Marks". 4 wins. 8 losses if you're THAT unfortunate. And it IS easy because I play a lot, but not blindly, and not treating it like a crap shoot. I pushed to get better, then I got better, then it became easier to win. You know, just like people do with endgame PvE content. Ultimate Coil took what, a little over a week? Pretty sure people weren't hitting final phase right away, no matter how good they were. And I'm sure there was frustration in doing it, but more than that, there was determination, and a will to succeed. And they did. That same mentality proves beneficial in any content in this game. This isn't me saying treat everything like Ultimate-level content, but have that same determination and willingness to learn and make effort, and you'll see the results you want to see.

Make even a little effort to learn and try and improve, and the game practically throws rewards at you.

[KaivaC]

Kaiva, what do you think "raising the difficulty curve" means? If you think royal menagerie is easy, the only things harder above it are o1s and susano/lakshimi. O1s and lakshimi are too gimmick laden to be good teaching experiences. If your goal is to raise difficulty to bridge between casual and savage, that 70 trial is going to have to be like an ex trial, with shinryu hard pushed down to about 63, and probably the easier ex trials at 60 taking the place of thordan, right down to 50 ex trials ending the main scenario. You can't raise dungeon difficulty much because you'd massively slow them down, either via trash or bosses, and there's a limit to how hard they can be made when you don't have your full kit. Look at Brayflox hard final boss for an example-the bombs can be really hard for people to deal with if they don't have a point blank circle aoe.

Just annoying, no one ever really thinks about what changes actually mean for players in real practice.

You can raise the dungeon difficulty. Having a bunch of trash mobs does not equate difficulty...they are currently little more than AOE fodder. I wish to see the devs start to get away from this mindset of filling dungeons with trash mobs to add in a false sense of difficulty for dungeons. It's already too late to do anything about the dungeons we have now, but future dungeons need to start having a better difficulty curve. Realistically, now that we'll be hitting patch 4.2, even though I know the dungeons are going to essentially be the same type of content, just with different scenery and different bosses, this would ideally be the point where we start seeing the difficulty start to step up and force players to pay attention. If it's not MSQ, why can't the dungeons start having fewer mobs that start challenging each role?

Lakshmi's difficulty results from not paying attention after learning her fight and non-communication. Honestly, the hardest part of this fight falls onto the OT because they need to maintain their aggro to keep the party from being cleaved. Is the fight itself gimmicky? Absolutely. But it is definitely a good learning experience because it forces the entire party to work together. Healers stack with each other, DPS pairs off, and tanks stick together generally throughout the whole fight. Pay attention to which add has a bubble and avoid killing them if they do not have one. Always pop a Vril while Lakshmi is in Chancala mode. Even without the Vril gimmick, once you actually are in a clear party, what's so difficult about those things? And I don't mean from the perspective of a player in a trap party.

O1S is not gimmicky. You've dealt with ice floors before in a few dungeons. Again, like with the Lakshmi example above, once you learn the fight, it shouldn't be difficult to deal with practically any of the mechanics, save for the part with Alte Roite going to the edge. And even that isn't difficult to deal with - the MT just has to bait him, while the rest of the party pays attention to which way he is facing.

As for your Brayflox example, I dunno about each and every DPS job (I do know that SMN would have a little bit of a hard time with that), I believe all tank classes have an AOE attack by 50. I've done runs there on PLD where I was the only one using AOE during that boss fight, and I've been able to make a safe zone for the party. It's not that hard, players just need to stop being lazy about things like this.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

My point was that if you wanted to gear up your jobs, and you had more than one of them (i have every single one at 60, and all but two at 70) and you dislike pvp, its a lot more time. Its adds up fast, and most people who think its easy just play an awful lot because they like the mode. its not "oh its only 4k wolf marks" for some people, it can be 144,000 for all that they want. Then there are the minions, the orchestrion roles, etc.

Just based on your post history, you...

- Despise Savage and raiding in general
- Dislike EX Primals
- Dislike Tomestone gearing (Not that I entirely blame you here)
- Dislike PvP
- Dislike gear progression or its alternatives (Savage, PvP)
- Dislike 24 Mans
- Like Diadem

What do you actually enjoy about this game? Seriously. I have only ever seen you bitch and moan about everything yet you'll be among the first to jump into a parse or Savage thread and cite how toxic raiders are. You'll, of course, omit the fact you don't actually participate in that content. Your entire stance can be summarized to "I only want content I like. Everything is a waste of resources!!" And you'll promptly prattle on about concepts you have no idea about as Sebazy as so eloquently demonstrated. So instead of telling everyone else to stop complaining; to find another game. How about you take your own advice?

[SenorPatty]

Just based on your post history, you...

- Despise Savage and raiding in general
- Dislike EX Primals
- Dislike Tomestone gearing (Not that I entirely blame you here)
- Dislike PvP
- Dislike gear progression or its alternatives (Savage, PvP)
- Dislike 24 Mans
- Like Diadem

What do you actually enjoy about this game? Seriously. I have only ever seen you bitch and moan about everything yet you'll be among the first to jump into a parse or Savage thread and cite how toxic raiders are. You'll, of course, omit the fact you don't actually participate in that content. Your entire stance can be summarized to "I only want content I like. Everything is a waste of resources!!" And you'll promptly prattle on about concepts you have no idea about as Sebazy as so eloquently demonstrated. So instead of telling everyone else to stop complaining; to find another game. How about you take your own advice?

You forgot to add the community to that list.

Usually, I have an issue when someone says "why are you still playing this game?" because its usually used in an over-exaggerated manner in response to someone disliking ONE thing about the game.

But Riyah just...seems to hate everything.

EDIT: oh. Except Diadem.


I think.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You forgot to add the community to that list.

Usually, I have an issue when someone says "why are you still playing this game?" because its usually used in an over-exaggerated manner in response to someone disliking ONE thing about the game.

But Riyah just...seems to hate everything.

EDIT: oh. Except Diadem.


I think.

You're right!

Mockery aside, I normally feel the same. I just can't understand why Riyah bothers to continue playing since there doesn't seem to be anything she likes.

Wouldn't that defeat the idea of having the normal difficulty raids so people can enjoy the story?

Why can't people who want to progress the story actually have to earn it? Normal doesn't need to be bleeding edge difficult, but I don't think it's too much to ask the supposed "world ending boss" not roll over in five minutes.