Why the hate with endgame fights?

[NephthysVasudan]

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See I can accept that....however the dungeons and raids i see regularly on my server are not helping me much in terms of prospects. In any case I'll get there eventually.
And good on you for forum achievement.

[KaivaC]

The shinryu normal thing was that at the ilvl at the time (290ish) it was a large step up from any hard mode trial we had. I tell people to look at new steps of faith to see the difference; Shin lasts much longer, has much more varied mechanics, has a ring-out, and has a much more vicious add phase. I mean heck, its the first hard mode trial that has damage incoming on both tanks. It's doable, but it's an odd jump especially considering future hard mode trials need to be balanced compared to it; we'll see with the new jade stoa trial what they think.

Savage content...well, if your idea of fun is fighting a single boss for fifteen minutes following an exact pattern to the letter, with deviations from it being one-shotted, well go nuts. Oh, and if your team gets one shotted enough, its enrage, just restart. And there's a pretty hard cap to difficulty to it, as well; they make it too hard, only 1% of the playerbase can beat it and the raid scene dies, because there's nothing else to do at that level.

Key word - one-shotted enough. If a group is so bad that multiple players keep getting oneshot, then that's on those players...it's not a mistake on the part of the fight itself, because honestly, it's easy to get through each fight (I'm up to farm status for O3S and Shinryu Ex) without making a mechanic mistake. I will admit, I find challenges fun. I don't like face-rolling stuff - it's why I stopped playing games like Dynasty Warriors, where you can just mash buttons, essentially. We've had this discussion before - at this point, I don't feel that content should still be as casual as it it. Honestly, I feel that starting with Bardam's Mettle, dungeons should've been getting harder, leading up to Shinryu. I feel like Kugane Castle should've had interesting mechanics with the mobs...Temple of the Fist should've had fewer enemies with mechanics that could hit with you penalty debuffs. At lvl 70, all players need to start being legitimately challenged.

Facepalm all you want. All I am saying is that you can avoid the "elistists" you don't like by making your own PF. And I'm pretty sure they will avoid a learning party. If they don't, you can kick them.

But I somehow feel the problem is not here.

The post you're replying to was dripping with sarcasm lol

See I can accept that....however the dungeons and raids i see regularly on my server are not helping me much in terms of prospects. In any case I'll get there eventually.
And good on you for forum achievement.

They're not too different from their normal counterparts. Honestly, the true wake up call starts with O3S and Shinryu Ex...and those are more about paying attention to what 'you' are doing. Shinryu in particular does have healer specific mechanics unlike some other fights, but once you can figure out the order of his attacks, you should be fine. I can't speak on O4S because, and I've said this quite a few times on other posts, fighting there actually makes me incredibly nervous, so I haven't entered a prog party for any class.

Fun would be endgame that an entire FC can do, with more than eight people and not reliant on a single boss's pattern dancing. Fun would actually be some variation in group comp and tactics, maybe even using all that useless CC we have to stage enemies and making tanks have real offtank duties that require tank stance and judgment on which mobs to tackle next.

I mean...you do have 24-mans. And besides that, wouldn't that neglect the other FCs that don't comprise of more than 8 members? And let's be honest here, a large part of the player base can't deal with a few bosses that only have a single pattern. One would think it would be easy, but no...there's still a large portion of the player base that can't clear these fights. And you want to introduce variation? I mean, hell, players still screw up Hashmal on a weekly basis, and he is certainly easier than fighting Shinryu normal.

[RiyahArp]

Key word - one-shotted enough. If a group is so bad that multiple players keep getting oneshot, then that's on those players...

The point is that's really the only difficulty they can do. All they can do is make mechanics faster, and make them one shot you. So all you do is learn the pattern not to get one shot, and thats it. They add dps checkpoints and enrage to force losses instead of people just zombying through with the raise penalty like you could do in casual content. They can't do much in the way of pure random content because of this. it all has to be scripted tightly.

I mean...you do have 24-mans. And besides that, wouldn't that neglect the other FCs that don't comprise of more than 8 members? And let's be honest here, a large part of the player base can't deal with a few bosses that only have a single pattern. One would think it would be easy, but no...there's still a large portion of the player base that can't clear these fights. And you want to introduce variation? I mean, hell, players still screw up Hashmal on a weekly basis, and he is certainly easier than fighting Shinryu normal.

...remember that alex fight with the four robots? That's what 24 mans are. Same thing, just the smoosh all the bosses in a tier together. Still instanced, still as scripted as solo fights. Diadem was really the only endgame style that came close, and people savaged it even though V2 was a better iteration of it because OMIGOD MY .01% CHANCE AT A BIS WEAPON BETTER THAN SAVAGE.

I've seen your posts, you keep hating on endgame, raids, housing, glamour, the community...
If you have this much hate with the game, why are you still here?

The hate is coming because they refuse to grow the game, and the community is honestly getting stupid about it. I have no issues with glamour, i do have it with content that really just copies wondrous tails and doesn't do much for players beyond once a week for ten minutes. If they want to make a stage and have weekly community run GM events and true fashion contests, go nuts! That might actually help make us a community. Some stupid instanced junk for yet another token doesn't solve this, and we've already seen that formula repeat itself.

The community just has no idea any more. They argue about parsers when most FCs are silent graveyards and have a half-life of a year. They worry about ice mages more than they do an empty open world. It was one thing when HW was new and they felt like they were working stuff out, but ugh,stop obsessing over one job doing 500 less dps on farm runs and start on how little content we've had to do the past seven months.

[KaivaC]

The point is that's really the only difficulty they can do. All they can do is make mechanics faster, and make them one shot you. So all you do is learn the pattern not to get one shot, and thats it. They add dps checkpoints and enrage to force losses instead of people just zombying through with the raise penalty like you could do in casual content. They can't do much in the way of pure random content because of this. it all has to be scripted tightly.

And my point is that a huge chunk of players can't even handle that. But you want some content randomized...that clear percentage would definitely go down. A part of that is on current dungeons not preparing players...but at this point, if you've cleared Shinryu, then you really don't have an excuse as to why you can't figure out how to handle Savage/Ex. And to be fair, just as a side note, a lot of the mechanics in Savage/Ex are survivable - yes they make a run harder, but a good portion of them do not one shot you.

You can get hit with a fireball, or lose all DPS at one point, while fighting O1S right now and still clear the fight with plenty of time.

O2S, you can screw up a gravitational manipulation and still clear the fight.

O3S, you can mess up the first game and get the entire party hit with a nasty debuff, and you can still clear her fight. I mean, if you really want to take it that far, you can totally screw up animal farm, and the fight is still clearable. Much more difficult without an LB3 during ninja/iron giant phase, but still clearable.

Shinryu Ex, somebody can mess up a couple of times, or you can fail to skip the second Tidal Wave, and you will still be able to clear. You keep speaking in absolutes and then say we need some randomized elements, when its clear that even with this script, players still have a hard time clearing stuff. So why would you want to introduce random elements into endgame fights?

[RiyahArp]

And my point is that a huge chunk of players can't even handle that. But you want some content randomized...that clear percentage would definitely go down.

if each attack gives you a second or two to react, a lot of people will fail this. If you add the requirement to pattern match in that one to two seconds, or add more conditions it increases. people can only process so much information quickly, so to do it random you need to slow the reaction and pattern matching down so players can watch and react. You want random elements so players are using judgment instead of reacting, but a lot of the reaction based gameplay makes it very hard to do so. If one person screws up their positioning, the only one who often can react is the healer if its a non-fatal attack; many times you can't, if just because they robbed you of control! (ice floor, walling people off to fight adds)

There's a thread in the Dungeon forums complaining about Hashmal complaining about basically the same things people complained about with Shinryu. So are you saying Hashmal is a huge jump compared to Shinryu?

You'd have to compare him to Ozma, and he's a decent jump compared to that.

Big issue with him is obscured mechanics and a lot of one-hit attacks, even at ilvl340. His rush is just a form of calofistieri's haircut attack, but designed to oneshot anyone but the tank until ilvl 360 or something, with a much harder tell. He feels like he is a prototype to test how casual players can deal with telegraphs being removed entirely and players forced to watch the boss's attacks directly, for almost an entire fight. Its hilarious in a way because you get the sense they realized he was too tough, and more or less nerfed every single following boss to deal with it.

The whole casual SB content from a game design sense is very teaching heavy.. It's obvious every encounter is there to teach you stuff by sheer repetition rather than feeling like organic difficulty. Susano hard is there to teach you to stack, scatter, and pop gaols, Lakshimi to drop aoes and use gimmicks. Rab's bosses teach the alliance to split adds and know when to rush to your marker, with the sub lessons being stuff like recognize nontelegraphed mechanics, stick to the boss, etc. Shinryu is just an endurance test to get you to recognize a lot more mechanics than you are used to, to try and get you ready for ex level content. I don't know what people think making it harder will do.