Why the hate with endgame fights?

[KaivaC]

snip

It's alright. Like I said before, it's an open discussion. I'll challenge posts, sure, but I do welcome the debate. And given how many posts we've had thus far, I feel this is a discussion that should be had.

[Jerichai]

Snip.

Quote me where I said that I personally was offended by those statements? My comments were to say that people could interpret blanket statements like those negatively, and as a result, be a reason they view the so called end game community as toxic. But please, as you requested on me, show me where I said that I myself was offended by the statements you asked me to quote.

[HoodRat]

Not even worth an honorable mention? I'm hurt Moro ;;

same

/10char

[Oscura]

same

/10char

You exist on a higher echelon.

Your posts are even more savage than the content, usually.

(also same btw but the last post I made was like page 16 so I didn't bother saying anything)

[MoroMurasaki]

Quote me where I said that I personally was offended by those statements? My comments were to say that people could interpret blanket statements like those negatively, and as a result, be a reason they view the so called end game community as toxic. But please, as you requested on me, show me where I said that I myself was offended by the statements you asked me to quote.

This isn't about personal offense, it never was. It started because you said this tread could be a net-negative because it could discourage people from raiding with it's toxic comments. I disagree and think it's a great discussion to have.


When prompted for these toxic comments (several times) you eventually pulled a few perfectly reasonable comments to quote.

Something in your head ticks the 'offensive' box when you read those comments or you wouldn't be trying to use them to defend your original comment. Either your original preposition was built on what you thought was here and you couldn't find anything actually problematic (god I hate that word) or you believe these things to be evidence to your credit.

So which is it? Am I right or was your original post built on a shaky, unsupportable premise?

same

/10char

You exist on a higher echelon.

Your posts are even more savage than the content, usually.

(also same btw but the last post I made was like page 16 so I didn't bother saying anything)

My deepest apologies ;-;

The more I reread things searching for this apparent 'toxicity' the more people I feel like I've missed.

If I could mail you both apology-gil I would <3

Also as I was reading through things again searching for this toxicity I came across a gem of a post from Kavia herself. She was offering to heal with someone through Savage who hadn't done it before. Anyone who read this thread and took note of some of this apparent toxicity had to try to reconcile that bad behavior with a no-strings-atrached offer to help.

How can this thread be anything but positive press for the raiding community in this game?

[Jerichai]

Snip.

The problem is that you've made a declaration that any example I provide is not 'toxic' as an absolute. You're not leaving any room for personal interpretation of those comments, and I'm kind of surprised you can't see how someone might not enjoyed being labeled lazy or entitled by someone who barely knows them.

I mean, let's look at it from another perspective:

Let's say you're at a party and see someone new and think about trying to go meet them. Your friend who's with you informs you they before having met you, this new person told your friend he thought you were lazy/stuck-up/etc (based solely on appearance or maybe catching part of a conversation you were having in passing). Would you be eager to invest more time with that person? Even if you personally could work through that, could you at least see where someone else might not be so willing, especially if they have other people around/things to do to invest that energy in instead? And it's not even about being easily offended. I think being a bit defensive towards people who make such a broad, negative judgement about you with no real knowledge about you as an individual is just about self care.

[MoroMurasaki]

snip.

Some of those posts with no context surrounding them could put someone off if they were especially sensitive but I think anyone smart enough to play this game at that level is also going to understand that the posts above that post came first and likely effected what those posters had to say.

If an entirely blank slate of a person were to read this thread I'd imagine they would be much more scared of the casual playerbase than the raiders and I think if you looked at things objectively you'd agree.

I can't take most of what you're saying seriously because I hear it all through the filter of you having a clearly anti-raiding community outlook.

It's alright to disagree but I don't think you're gaining any ground here and it seems like you want to. You aren't going to convince a bunch of raiders or people with raiding friends that that community is this toxic cesspool because they already know better. You also aren't going to convince them that a thread like this offering frank discussion about that community and it's needs is bad press because they've been here and seen what they've put out into the world in comparison to people like Rhiya.

This thread is, as Kavia said, a debate but at this point at least there is a clear winner and it's been a landslide victory.

[RiyahArp]

Considering no one can even spell my name right it seems, I'm not sure.

And I see a couple of us actually saying why we dislike things and giving reasons, and the rest of the people essentially just defending their own raids as well as essentially saying "You must clear OS4 to be able to talk on it." Not like me nor others have zero savage experience, nor that savage in this game is a long, multi-tiered fight that you need to do multiple steps that take months; we're talking four single bosses that you can spend a couple hours learning all of their attacks, and maybe 6 hours to 2-4 weeks to fully defeat. All of the fights you even prep by watching a video or faq to understand every attack in theory, then go in to do it in practice.

As fo Kaiva's help, she isn't even on my data center. So it looks good as a gesture but was useless to me.

To be blunt, it wouldn't matter if I was perfectly polite. Whenever you say anything that counteracts the values of people, they will always take the negative stance against it. People are too wrapped up in raids as a form of identity that no real challenge to them will ever be tolerated; any real discussion of them just warps back to reaffirming the shared belief, i.e. raids are wonderful and players just need to git gud. And when you get piled on enough, you really start to get annoyed with people and the whole shared belief itself. You get tired of people always overemphasizing ice mages, or complaining about the skill of the playerbase despite things going really well, or teh many little myths that build up and get reinforced, and it creates this big divide between the myth and what you experience in game.

[Jerichai]

Snip.

Umm, no my friend...it would be strange for me to have an anti-raid outlook considering I've raided across multiple MMOs for more than a decade. I do enjoy the content, and most of all, I enjoy bringing people into the content who have been hesitant to try it for a multitude of reasons (many I can emphasize with as someone who's dealt consistently with depression and anxiety over the years).

Here's the issue I feel like you keep missing: Perception vs. Reality. I have never argued as a whole that the raid community is a toxic wasteland. That said, I can also understand how those 'on the outside' with no leg in the raiding game could perceive many needlessly harsh comments that quite frankly are a daily occurrence on any MMO forum as a sign of a toxic community. Are their perceptions in line with reality? No, cause the raid community doesn't have an agenda to go out of its way to be toxic. But when you consider that many of these outlying negative comments typically go unanswered (as well as many times GD being skewed negatively) you have to consider how that impacts perception. Considering those not raiding likely don't have the benefit of interacting with those raiders who aren't complete assholes, then these kinds of blanket statements make up a larger percentage of a person's perception of the community. Perception vs. Reality.

My main goal in continuing this conversation is that I noticed quite a bit of anger/frustration towards people earlier in the thread who stated that they avoided raiding due to their perceptions of a toxic community. Some went to imply that these people were lying or had ulterior motives. I just don't see how this helps. Acting in this manner does nothing to try to understand how their perception developed, and worse yet, probably just helps to affirm their perceptions. I really wish folks would try more often to engage in a good spirited way to help people see past their first impressions.

[Dualgunner]

People are too wrapped up in raids as a form of identity that no real challenge to them will ever be tolerated; any real discussion of them just warps back to reaffirming the shared belief, i.e. raids are wonderful and players just need to git gud.

Whereas you do the same but in the opposite direction: you always wrap around to the idea that everything is easy to a raider, and that raiders are a uniquely toxic subclass of player.