Why the hate with endgame fights?

[Shurrikhan]

And like i said the trend started with those players which led to the attitude that still exists today.ie being toxic to players over gear/dps parses,failing a mechanic.When people act toxic in this way it starts a trend and then becomes a norm unless something is done about it.Se have tried to address the issue by nerfing content or buffing jobs but this is and always will be the wrong way to approach it.I havent ignored anything you stated.

Nerfing content and/or buffing jobs has never been given as a solution or even as mitigation to "toxicity" derived from people attempting content they are unable to do within nearly the expected span of learning time or under the criteria under which they accepted recruitment.

Expressing frustration and making decisive cuts over people failing to hold their own as promised in throughput or mechanical performance is far from being "toxic". And the standards for wanting to actually finish the content as specified, with a party matching the requirements you expressly listed, is hardly an 'immigrant taint'. You can't just blame people being held accountable to some misguided carryover from other MMOs.

The only thing that has increased with time are conventions built around the tools to increase player quality of life. We now can more easily determine who's holding us back, and, if need be, replace just them instead of disbanding, reforming with new players, wiping over another weak link or two, disbanding, reforming, repeat, repeat. That is quality of life increase. And perhaps if more people would hold themselves accountable to what's expected of them, or make their own parties fitting what they are actually willing to do, they'd force far less conflict.

Tl;dr: Don't blame the immigrants from other MMOs for the most basic reasons for conflict (poor communication and/or broken promises), and that conflict running its due course. They are not the reasons for toxicity, nor, in any event, are the conflicts you're talking about toxic on the part of those you're accusing.

[Kazrah]

It's certainly a balance issue. Although hardcore raiders want more challenging content (and devs indeed wish to provide that), the echoes of Gordian Savage ring through the halls of SE, reminding them of what happens when content is made too difficult to the point where jobs are ruled out on a globally universal level. There's probably a desire to expand the percentage of players competing in savage content, which would lead to more reason for them to make that content easier while providing unending raids to keep the more consistent savage players content.

As for me personally, I don't really do savage mostly because I don't really care. Endgame for me is either extreme primals (usually against my will) or 24-player raids, because the most entertaining combat mechanic for me has always been the difficulty of getting 24 people to communicate.

[Moomba33]

I don't really see more hate towards endgame fights in SB compared to earlier in this game's life. Closest I can think of is the "waste of resources" argument that sprouted up around Ultimate Coil.

The Shinryu nerf requests weren't any more extreme than the complaints that came up around the Steps of Faith. Hashmal complaints aren't really any different than the Weeping City complaints of Heavensward.

Some complaints that existed in ARR don't even have an equivalent now like the story gating in Coil being resolved by normal mode raids in the expansions. Or the difficulty of pre-nerf Pharos Sirius dungeon never coming up for future dungeons since they've all been easy since then.

So part 1 of my answer is: I don't think there was a straw that broke the camel's back as difficulty complaints are nothing new.

As for why this is I'd say it comes down to a lack of difficulty curve in the overall game. After going through 100+ hours steamrolling over content it can come as a system shock when failure has consequences. Some people are motivated by challenges and want to improve and overcome them. Some people are discouraged and would rather go do something else when they hit a wall. Some will complain and hope the challenge level is brought down to a level they deem acceptable. Others simply don't enjoy the challenge presented by this game (strict memorization to avoid instant deaths) and may hope that feedback will lead to different challenges they can enjoy.

Part 2 of my answer is essentially that a sudden bump in difficulty will be handled by different people in different ways depending on whether they find the presented challenge enjoyable or not.

[alimdia]

Anyone who thinks the raiding community is toxic should walk around this lovely thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...vent./page1397

DF community is by far more toxic, yet I don't see any of you saying you will stop using DF to avoid those toxic players, so why is that an argument for end game fights?

[KaldeaSahaline]

I actually have to disagree with this last point. Early on, XIV faced even more problems with specific ISPs taking incredibly strange routes to XIV's servers (and only to XIV's servers) that seemed to double-up in penalty in regards to AoE zones. Worse still, one could vary by up to some 150 ping just between different instances of the same fight. Their polling rate (frequency of positional checks) was also merely half what it is now.

During Titan HM and later Ex, I had to count down the mechanics by timelog and leave almost a half second early just to leave my plume with everyone else's without dying to said plumes even if at the far edge of the arena.

There was definitely more to that time than mere excuses, and the sheer range and seeming randomness of one's ping was certainly frustration-inducing.

Forgive me, I should have been clearer. I was not referring to the server settings/issues in the beginning of ARR. Those are fairly well documented and the difference of before and after were insanely evident to anyone affected. I personally had a good connection, in fact my connection then was considerably better than it is now, because I had no issues with L3, but I cannot play this game past 8pm EST without mudfish because of SE's budget SLA agreement with NTT.

The context of my post was in regards to the "DPS check and WAR claims". Not the inability for a high latency player to dodge hair trigger telegraphs.

As for me personally, I don't really do savage mostly because I don't really care. Endgame for me is either extreme primals (usually against my will) or 24-player raids, because the most entertaining combat mechanic for me has always been the difficulty of getting 24 people to communicate.

I'm surprised you find coordinating 23 other people fun. Speaking personally that's always been one of the worst parts of raiding, and part of why I enjoy raiding being 8 man in this game. Not saying your opinion is wrong or anything, merely surprising.

Actually you didnt give any real counter argument.And like i said the trend started with those players which led to the attitude that still exists today.ie being toxic to players over gear/dps parses,failing a mechanic.When people act toxic in this way it starts a trend and then becomes a norm unless something is done about it.Se have tried to address the issue by nerfing content or buffing jobs but this is and always will be the wrong way to approach it.I havent ignored anything you stated.

I will requote again the 2 questions you have ignored twice now.

Humor me, is it just as possible that maybe Titan HM was the first piece of content in the game that required a modicum of reflexes/skill and as such caused a divide between skilled/unskilled players?

Explain to me why you believe SoF and Thornmarch EX were "very toxic".

Would you mind citing your data that shows that the trend started with players migrating from other games? I'd love to know how you personally were able to identify each individual as to where they came from and how they directly contributed to it.

Really looking forward to reading it. If you don't have any data that's fine, just make sure you specify in your post that it is your opinion, one that appears drenched in bias and emotion.

Anyone who thinks the raiding community is toxic should walk around this lovely thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...vent./page1397

DF community is by far more toxic, yet I don't see any of you saying you will stop using DF to avoid those toxic players, so why is that an argument for end game fights?

My experience matches this as well sadly.

[odintius]

I just see cross server party finder as another df option you get same results random player get random player skill for Savage/extemes. If people did use the tools given and find whatever skill type player to do content we wouldn't see as many complaints.

Although people like convenience and chose using duty finder because it's faster and not much effort in let say starting a group because lets get real that take effort to find that player, but the people who do though have better outcome and less toxic experience imo. /Shrugs

[Johaandr]

People who complain sucks.
Being brutally honest here. Its the truth and there is no way to argue against it. Dont like how savage work? Dont do it.
People who complains savage is hard shouldnt even play end game content. End of story.

I also HATE nerf of battles and i WISH Older contents has set iMin lvl when you que stuff.

"You dont pay my sub" . Well idc cuse i will kick you out of my party.

Not sure if any1 gets the point cuse i sound like an asshole now:T

[DrWho2010]

i just wish people could actually perform in pf groups. I wrote in a Susano EX party - "Farm for a bit, know what you are doing." other than me - no one knew what they were doing. it was horrible. how is this fight still hard at this point in the game?

[Aylis]

So, I'll start this with a question: what is the issue with endgame fights? Why are some individuals opposed to them?

Dunno, I neither hate nor oppose them. I personally just have no desire to do them or try them. So I don't give them a second thought. If those fights are someone else's cup of tea. Then let them enjoy it as far as I'm concerned.

[Melichoir]

Honestly, I havent personally seen a lot of "hate" towards endgame bosses save for here on forums or reddit. In game, not really. But Id hazard that tis because people want to see full forms of certain bosses (Neo-ExDeath), but can only do that if they do savage. A lot of people say "OMG Savage is brain dead easy! Git Gud!" but that position comes from people not understanding others skill levels and time constraints. Yes, dedicated people can learn any fight and do well. If you have previous savage experience, youll progress faster. But it still is a time sink to learn and beat fights. And that may make it harder for people to do cause some people might take longer to learn and "git gud".

So in some light, people want to experience savage stuff but dont have the time or ability, and feel a bit jipped by their own circumstances. Ill say it sucks, sure, but savage is there for the people who want teh challange. If you want some of that, you gotta square away the fact it takes time and practice to do it. You cant demand that you want access to it but dont want to put the time or effort in.