Why the hate with endgame fights?

[CosmicKirby]

Fun would be endgame that an entire FC can do, with more than eight people and not reliant on a single boss's pattern dancing. Fun would actually be some variation in group comp and tactics, maybe even using all that useless CC we have to stage enemies and making tanks have real offtank duties that require tank stance and judgment on which mobs to tackle next.

Can you actually use examples of your ideas here? There was CC/kiting/more in-depth Off tank adds back in Coil, they really weren't as noteworthy as you might thing. Most of the old raids in WoW similarly did such things. It usually amounts to some players gaining a new assigned role that really isn't as fun as you might hope.

Tanking and Healing need significant reworks if they want to adjust the damage dealing meta. Throughputs are too high and active mitigation comes mostly through cooldowns that aren't reliant upon stances.

FFXI Byakko: get your endgame FC cleared and able to visit an entirely seperate zone called Sky, and navigate its dangers to get the item to pop the god Byakko, who himself was part of chain of Gods all linked together to summon the big boss Kirin. The zone was actually open to other players, whether leveling (beastmasters) or getting other pops. The fight used your entire FC and had room for players of all level of skill.

So, you WANT very LARGE swathes of content tied behind difficult fights? I thought many people were not wanting this, complaining that Coil was story locked or that extra versions of fights were Savage only?

Spoilers: Any fight in any MMO ever that had 'room for players of all skills' are pretty bad. Doing such a difficult task usually requires:
1.) The boss has so much health and there's basically no cap to the amount of players you can bring, so you just bring everyone with a pulse (Ala WoW 40 mans)
2.) "Everyone contributing" includes people who supply the raid. If you want to make this feel more worthwhile, you start adding virtually mandatory and long farming requirements. IE consumables or gear that's so useful or potentially even required that for every X hours of attempts you need Y hours of farming for materials. This was all of Vanilla WoW, it was harsh and required far, far more hours to actually raid. Know what you're asking for here.

FFXIV Byakko. Take five minutes to unlock a circular arena with one boss that only 8 people can enter. Beat on the boss for a week till you get his pattern, then either do it a little more to get a weapon that may last you 3-4 weeks, or do it till your sick of it to get maybe a 1-3% chance at a mount. Everybody dps's, and tanks or heals as little as possible.

"Tanking or healing as little as possible" is called efficiency. The more picky the requirements are on efficiency, the harder a fight is. Is the itemization and loot tables for primals bad? I'd mostly agree. But the way they're handled is pretty above average as far as MMORPG raid bosses goes.

The harder normal content gets, the more likely players will do it in statics, and vote abandon over trying to get it done. If you do trial roulette a bunch, you know people tend to do this on trials as it is; I've joined many in progress as tank.

Right, which is why I'm curious as to your suggestions above. FF11 and Vanilla WoW were certainly rewarding in that time and effort were weighed more heavily than raw performance, but this comes at a very significant time-cost for most players, which really isn't a popular trend these days. (See: any complaints of Relic Weapons)

I'm more of an advocate for 3 tiers of difficult for endgame. As of now, we have a hodgepodge of WoW Normal/LFR for our one 'Normal" difficulty. And our Savage difficulty is somewhere bouncing between "Heroic/Mythic". The problem only made worse by the hard limit of 4-6 bosses per patch at most.

[VanilleFang]

Shinryu

There's a thread in the Dungeon forums complaining about Hashmal complaining about basically the same things people complained about with Shinryu. So are you saying Hashmal is a huge jump compared to Shinryu?

[Riko_Futatabi]

The only problem I have with Normal versions is that sometimes they excluded entire phases. Ex-death and Neo-Exdeath for example. I mean it's kind of cool initially in Savage as sort of a new phase "reveal" that you haven't seen before, but only for the first time. I still think that the Neo phase should have existed in the Normal version too. Normal versions of many fights are far too easy. Too many mechanics taken out entirely and like I said before, some fights have entire phases taken out. Normal can still be easy but made more interesting by keeping the mechanics and phases from the Extreme/Savage versions.

[NephthysVasudan]

The only problem I have with Normal versions is that sometimes they excluded entire phases. Ex-death and Neo-Exdeath for example. I mean it's kind of cool initially in Savage as sort of a new phase "reveal" that you haven't seen before, but only for the first time. I still think that the Neo phase should have existed in the Normal version too. Normal versions of many fights are far too easy. Too many mechanics taken out entirely and like I said before, some fights have entire phases taken out. Normal can still be easy but made more interesting by keeping the mechanics and phases from the Extreme/Savage versions.

Your causing contradictions - the point of a normal vs hard vs extreme vs savage is a difficulty curve....otherwise there's not a lot of rhyme or reason in terms of doing it in the first place...and rewards.
Now if your talking about keeping it "interesting" - that's different. Even in learning terms.

[Zojha]

Personally, I just don't want to be pushed into these fights with exclusive rewards, because I simply don't find team jumprope with insta-gib and insta-wipe mechanics a very enjoyable activity. In general, I hate insta-gib mechanics, but the sheer power of healers has forced SE to resort to them more and more often to make mechanics matter at all, as they're so easily erased otherwise.

Thus, when I feel like challenging myself, I do so elsewhere, preferably single-player games. The journey towards the win is a lot less frustrating and the ultimate win a lot more gratifying there.

Other than that, so long as the development cost is justified by participation, I don't really care whether they exist or not. I don't have to like it after all. I'd just like if there were enough people who do to warrant the resources.

[Lelila38]

snip.

I've seen your posts, you keep hating on endgame, raids, housing, glamour, the community...
If you have this much hate with the game, why are you still here?

[Estelle9lives]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm playing the same game as the people who claim they see "elitist behavior" and "parser obssession" everywhere.

I know in the end it's all anecdoctal evidence, but I've been playing this game for over 3 years (and have been raiding since FCoB) and I've only seen people getting harassed over DPS numbers once - this coming from someone who joins all sorties of parties (parse runs, learning, clear and even parties clearly labeled as trap). I had parse runs while I was doing over 4-5 times the DPS of my co-healer (with similar HPS) and yet no one would say anything, or kick them for that matter.

Sometimes I join clear parties for fun, and very often I see other people who already cleared joining the fight just to help out. I remember back in Creator, my first A12S clear (when cross server PF didn't exist) had help of several top tier players who had absolutely no obligation to be there, yet they stayed wiping with us for several hours until we got the clear. Yet when you look at these forums, you'd think any player who wants to try and learn encounters/get into raiding have to do it with friends or they will be bullied, harassed and called names.

My suggestion is: give the raiding community a shot. If you are too nervous to join someone's party, make your own and set your expectations. There's much less elitism around than you'd think.

[Lelila38]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm playing the same game as the people who claim they see "elitist behavior" and "parser obssession" everywhere.

Thank you. I too have been playing since launch and have yet to see anyone being harassed over numbers. I also don't regards a "hey your dps is low, try to step it up a bit" as harassment.
It would be nice, if people on the forums could stop spreading panic, maybe more new players would be interested in giving raiding a shot then.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

THANK YOU!

I've been reading this and rolling my eyes the entire time, so I'm glad to see someone speak a bit more reasonably.

People treat even the smallest amount of difficulty like an allergy in this game, or self-restrict themselves then point fingers at the "elitists" for keeping them out of content. OR refuse to make the effort to learn/prepare, or even perform their job/role to an acceptable level given the content, then again blame others or blame the content itself. It's ridiculous.

[RiyahArp]

i find people who say git gud never really faced difficult content in the first place; it was easy for them, and they can't get how it isn't easy for everyone else. When you actually have hard content, you're too worried with getting it done rather than obsessing over others, and you know how frustrating it is for you, so the last thing you want to do is force others to do it. It took all my focus and concentration to heal 3.0 pvp, for example; wtf would i rage about others not being good at it, when it was so frustrating and wearying? Its people who go in, and ace it, and then ace it so much they can farm the "hard" content nonstop for hours, that always say git gud, but that doesn't seem hard to me.