Why the hate with endgame fights?

[NephthysVasudan]

Nothing prevents you to form a PF practise group and try savage/ex primals.
Only a small part of the raiding community is "elitist" and focusing on numbers.

The raiding community is not as toxic as you think.

*facepalm*

Yes...I had no idea that PF was even a feature to be used that way. Thanks for that....

T.T;

[Antonio_Xul]

As someone who is "ready" to start savage content?

Its not the content I hate.

its the community.

This elitist "git gud" attitude and obsession with parser's really makes me not EVER want to do it.

At least until I get a large enough group of friends who respect one another and don't give a rats ass about perfection...but about having fun in clearing said content.

Just my 2 cents.

I have to agree with this. It's not the content people hate, but the people that run it. The harder the content, the douchier the players involved. Most have no patience and expect perfection. If something goes wrong, there is always blaming or finger pointing going on, even in learning groups. Obviously not every person in higher end game fights are douchie, but you tend to find most of the toxic folk here.

[OMega_ARcane]

As someone who is "ready" to start savage content?

Its not the content I hate.

its the community.

This elitist "git gud" attitude and obsession with parser's really makes me not EVER want to do it.

At least until I get a large enough group of friends who respect one another and don't give a rats ass about perfection...but about having fun in clearing said content.

Just my 2 cents.

This....*Gives a cup of hot tea sits next to you and does a most gentlemanly applaud*

[KaivaC]

i don't call for nerfs, but i like easier fights as well.

an easier fight means less training, less failing and less problems with randoms.

the required coordination for those team jumprope mechanics in this game, the expectation of perfection that many people have compared with the fact that this game lacks long term goals and even encourages "to take breaks", wich destroys many FCs and statics, are my reasons for this mindset.

i simply don't want to mess with randoms in harder fights.

I can confirm that, at the very least, O1S and O2S are puggable for farming on good days. The others...eh...not so much. So I can understanding that, totally. It wasn't too long ago that I joined a farm party in O2S and after the first clear, this WHM kept getting all the DPS killed on the third long drop. Completely made no sense whatsoever. After their 2nd time doing it, the party was disbanded...I would've just kicked the WHM myself, but alas, wasn't my party.

To be frank? People are entitled and lazy. There's really not much else to it. They don't want to do the work but they want what ever doing the work would earn them.

And yet, from what I've seen, these exact people are amongst the biggest complainers about difficulty and accessibility to said content. I want the O4S clear...but because I haven't personally tried to get it, I'm not complaining about not being able to get it...so I get why other players complained with some things. We saw a massive discussion about somebody upset because at the time, Shinryu could not be facerolled and that everybody did have to pay attention. And he wasn't even Savage.

Some people don't have the capacity or the will to tackle endgame content. yet they still feel they are owed it and attempt to get carried. if they can't they complain.

There are a sect of people here where the more stuff that is locked behind endgame fights, the more they will hate it. They're one-and-done kind of people so mastering a savage/ex is a waste of time for them when they know once they got what they want, they will never return to the content.

Which, I mean, i get - to each their own...but at the same time, I don't feel that particular sect should be opening their mouths if they haven't mastered a fight. Regardless of anything, this is still an MMO - some things, one has to earn. I mean, most of us grinded ourselves to lvl 70...it's related to grinding to get whatever you want that is locked behind endgame.

I have a similar mindset. Although I enjoy savage level fights with my static (we cleared 4 yesterday woo!), when it comes to pretty much everything else, the difficulty is wildly inconsistent and as a result certain fights are just unbearable. I accept dying as a result of my own mistakes, but dying because of other's mistakes rubs me the wrong way. It's why after 5 kills I've avoided Shinryu like the plague, it's just not consistently puggable.

Indeed. Certain fights, I cannot get a good farm party going for. I have trouble with Shinryu Ex still, but I wouldn't call it super difficult. It's just almost impossible to farm it in a PUG party because it's almost a guarantee someone is going to lose focus, or forget something, or God forbid, they mess up their rotations and we have to deal with a second Tidal Wave before we finally make it to the next phase.

In ARR it was worse, in Arr,if you did not the raid,you were missing a big chunk of the story,hence later they introduced raid normal/savage.

I think uts just some people can't handle difficulty,dontlike to struggle.

Oh? Was it like that in ARR? What fights were gates? Other than binding coil.

As someone who is "ready" to start savage content?

Its not the content I hate.

its the community.

This elitist "git gud" attitude and obsession with parser's really makes me not EVER want to do it.

At least until I get a large enough group of friends who respect one another and don't give a rats ass about perfection...but about having fun in clearing said content.

Just my 2 cents.

Honestly, in the vast majority of Pug parties I have joined in, I've never really dealt with an issue with parsing. The only time I've seen something come up about DPS, it was literally about missing DPS checks - not about how high one's numbers were. But, I admit that I might just be lucky on my datacentre because I'm somewhat selective about the description in PF. Unfortunately, I have to admit, there are a couple fights that you do have to pull off near-flawlessly - i.e. don't mess up a mechanic. From experience, it's usually O3S and Shinryu Ex that can really screw up a run if a player messes up a mechanic.

Also, I finally figured out how to properly use the multi-quotes. Makes my life so much easier - no more opening multiple tabs to grab multiple quotes. See, I 'got gud' on the forums.

[NephthysVasudan]

<snip>

See I can accept that....however the dungeons and raids i see regularly on my server are not helping me much in terms of prospects. In any case I'll get there eventually.
And good on you for forum achievement.

[KaivaC]

The shinryu normal thing was that at the ilvl at the time (290ish) it was a large step up from any hard mode trial we had. I tell people to look at new steps of faith to see the difference; Shin lasts much longer, has much more varied mechanics, has a ring-out, and has a much more vicious add phase. I mean heck, its the first hard mode trial that has damage incoming on both tanks. It's doable, but it's an odd jump especially considering future hard mode trials need to be balanced compared to it; we'll see with the new jade stoa trial what they think.

Savage content...well, if your idea of fun is fighting a single boss for fifteen minutes following an exact pattern to the letter, with deviations from it being one-shotted, well go nuts. Oh, and if your team gets one shotted enough, its enrage, just restart. And there's a pretty hard cap to difficulty to it, as well; they make it too hard, only 1% of the playerbase can beat it and the raid scene dies, because there's nothing else to do at that level.

Key word - one-shotted enough. If a group is so bad that multiple players keep getting oneshot, then that's on those players...it's not a mistake on the part of the fight itself, because honestly, it's easy to get through each fight (I'm up to farm status for O3S and Shinryu Ex) without making a mechanic mistake. I will admit, I find challenges fun. I don't like face-rolling stuff - it's why I stopped playing games like Dynasty Warriors, where you can just mash buttons, essentially. We've had this discussion before - at this point, I don't feel that content should still be as casual as it it. Honestly, I feel that starting with Bardam's Mettle, dungeons should've been getting harder, leading up to Shinryu. I feel like Kugane Castle should've had interesting mechanics with the mobs...Temple of the Fist should've had fewer enemies with mechanics that could hit with you penalty debuffs. At lvl 70, all players need to start being legitimately challenged.

Facepalm all you want. All I am saying is that you can avoid the "elistists" you don't like by making your own PF. And I'm pretty sure they will avoid a learning party. If they don't, you can kick them.

But I somehow feel the problem is not here.

The post you're replying to was dripping with sarcasm lol

See I can accept that....however the dungeons and raids i see regularly on my server are not helping me much in terms of prospects. In any case I'll get there eventually.
And good on you for forum achievement.

They're not too different from their normal counterparts. Honestly, the true wake up call starts with O3S and Shinryu Ex...and those are more about paying attention to what 'you' are doing. Shinryu in particular does have healer specific mechanics unlike some other fights, but once you can figure out the order of his attacks, you should be fine. I can't speak on O4S because, and I've said this quite a few times on other posts, fighting there actually makes me incredibly nervous, so I haven't entered a prog party for any class.

Fun would be endgame that an entire FC can do, with more than eight people and not reliant on a single boss's pattern dancing. Fun would actually be some variation in group comp and tactics, maybe even using all that useless CC we have to stage enemies and making tanks have real offtank duties that require tank stance and judgment on which mobs to tackle next.

I mean...you do have 24-mans. And besides that, wouldn't that neglect the other FCs that don't comprise of more than 8 members? And let's be honest here, a large part of the player base can't deal with a few bosses that only have a single pattern. One would think it would be easy, but no...there's still a large portion of the player base that can't clear these fights. And you want to introduce variation? I mean, hell, players still screw up Hashmal on a weekly basis, and he is certainly easier than fighting Shinryu normal.

[Gleipni]

In ARR it was worse, in Arr,if you did not the raid,you were missing a big chunk of the story,hence later they introduced raid normal/savage.

I think uts just some people can't handle difficulty,dontlike to struggle.

[RiyahArp]

The shinryu normal thing was that at the ilvl at the time (290ish) it was a large step up from any hard mode trial we had. I tell people to look at new steps of faith to see the difference; Shin lasts much longer, has much more varied mechanics, has a ring-out, and has a much more vicious add phase. I mean heck, its the first hard mode trial that has damage incoming on both tanks. It's doable, but it's an odd jump especially considering future hard mode trials need to be balanced compared to it; we'll see with the new jade stoa trial what they think.

Savage content...well, if your idea of fun is fighting a single boss for fifteen minutes following an exact pattern to the letter, with deviations from it being one-shotted, well go nuts. Oh, and if your team gets one shotted enough, its enrage, just restart. And there's a pretty hard cap to difficulty to it, as well; they make it too hard, only 1% of the playerbase can beat it and the raid scene dies, because there's nothing else to do at that level.

[ErryK]

.

So what you're saying is a fight needs less mechanics to be fun?

Actually, what is your idea of fun? School us, girl.

[RiyahArp]

Actually, what is your idea of fun? School us, girl.

Fun would be endgame that an entire FC can do, with more than eight people and not reliant on a single boss's pattern dancing. Fun would actually be some variation in group comp and tactics, maybe even using all that useless CC we have to stage enemies and making tanks have real offtank duties that require tank stance and judgment on which mobs to tackle next.

FFXI Byakko: get your endgame FC cleared and able to visit an entirely seperate zone called Sky, and navigate its dangers to get the item to pop the god Byakko, who himself was part of chain of Gods all linked together to summon the big boss Kirin. The zone was actually open to other players, whether leveling (beastmasters) or getting other pops. The fight used your entire FC and had room for players of all level of skill.

FFXIV Byakko. Take five minutes to unlock a circular arena with one boss that only 8 people can enter. Beat on the boss for a week till you get his pattern, then either do it a little more to get a weapon that may last you 3-4 weeks, or do it till your sick of it to get maybe a 1-3% chance at a mount. Everybody dps's, and tanks or heals as little as possible.

The only problem I have with Normal versions is that sometimes they excluded entire phases. Ex-death and Neo-Exdeath for example. I mean it's kind of cool initially in Savage as sort of a new phase "reveal" that you haven't seen before, but only for the first time. I still think that the Neo phase should have existed in the Normal version too. Normal versions of many fights are far too easy. Too many mechanics taken out entirely and like I said before, some fights have entire phases taken out. Normal can still be easy but made more interesting by keeping the mechanics and phases from the Extreme/Savage versions.

The harder normal content gets, the more likely players will do it in statics, and vote abandon over trying to get it done. If you do trial roulette a bunch, you know people tend to do this on trials as it is; I've joined many in progress as tank.