Why the hate with endgame fights?

[KaivaC]

When I first started really messing with Savage, it was A9S. I'm aware it's one of the easier ones but for me I hadn't really done anything Savage (other than A5S which I nearly cleared) before so it was really hard for me.

Once I learned the fight it got dull. I was just going through a set of motions. I knew what move to use at what point and it just got boring. I don't want to follow a script like that.

I do want more random things to happen.

Have you fought beyond O1S? I'd say that O3S is quite the challenge, even with her script with mechanics changing depending on where exactly she is.

[Adeacia]

Have you fought beyond O1S? I'd say that O3S is quite the challenge, even with her script with mechanics changing depending on where exactly she is.

I have cleared O1S, which even I found to be rather easy so you know that difficulty was really low, and saw enrage a few times on O2S but never bothered to get around to clearing it.

It's hard for me since I have a depression issue. I make one mistake and suddenly feel like I don't belong there and stop doing it entirely. I never cleared A10S for the same reason.

[KaivaC]

I have cleared O1S, which even I found to be rather easy so you know that difficulty was really low, and saw enrage a few times on O2S but never bothered to get around to clearing it.

It's hard for me since I have a depression issue. I make one mistake and suddenly feel like I don't belong there and stop doing it entirely. I never cleared A10S for the same reason.

Yeah, O1S and O2S are the easiest in Deltascape. I can understand about the depression...I've struggled with it myself since 2011. I won't lie...O3S is punishing on healers because of all the damage. But...I'm the sort of individual who hates being unable to take on a challenge. We're on the same datacenter and I main a healer, so I'd be very happy to run with you after I come back from my burnout break. Could help you with some healer-specific tips, if you'd like.

[ViolaCrossfire]

Let me just state this. I think it is safe to say the enrages are not the main turnoff from extreme and savage modes. Rather I believe it is the trial and error nature of those fights combined with the lack of handholding. Do I think that is reasonable as a roadblock? Absolutely. These fights still very much respect your intelligence and are a better way to put your mastery to the test.

[RiyahArp]

What's kind of funny with you saying this Bobs is that in the trailer for 4.2, the jade stoa trial actually has what looks like the enemy bullets from Nier Automata, which is kind of a bullet hell action game. It might not just be figurative, but literal! And of course, solo Lakshimi missile command.

I get what you are saying though. There's more in common with action and bullet hell games than traditional MMOs here.

[Adeacia]

HM01

My issue doesn't tend to be the healing itself. I pretty much could solo heal A9S.

I would mess a mech and wipe the raid. Best example: In O2S when we had to go to the side without a marker, while having the 2 stack markers. Even with the camera pulled all the way back, I couldn't always see which way to go until it was too late and I would cause a wipe.

After a few of those I mostly stopped even trying.

[Nora_of_Mira]

My issue doesn't tend to be the healing itself. I pretty much could solo heal A9S.

I would mess a mech and wipe the raid. Best example: In O2S when we had to go to the side without a marker, while having the 2 stack markers. Even with the camera pulled all the way back, I couldn't always see which way to go until it was too late and I would cause a wipe.

After a few of those I mostly stopped even trying.

If the party puts the tentacles on the little wagon wheels instead of the edge of the arena, you will be able to see all 4 markers very easily when zoomed out. it doesnt have to be placed on the very edge, just a tad inwards.

[KaldeaSahaline]

And that's why enrage timers need to die in a fire.

If you want enrage timers gone, what would you replace them with? SURELY you don't want the meta shifting to a 4 tank 4 healer meta where ALL DPS jobs are excluded because you can just ignore mechanics with invulns and erase mistakes with heals/resses.

How would you solve this issue? Or is your intent to simply 'dumb down' the content so that others can do it?

Are you ok with mid-fight DPS checks? I.e. if failed - does something, spawns adds, void zones, etc.? or are those bad too?

It's impossible to run out of MP. I would change that.
I would make stun mechanics useful again.
I would make it so you need to dispell boss or the players.
I would make it so DPS have to make a stun rotation.
I would get rid of predictable mechanics.

Ok this is a good start, but still too non-committal to the discussion.

I agree on the first change.
I agree on the second change.
I agree on the third change.
I agree on the fourth change.
I agree on the fifth change.

Now that we've covered you and I are in complete agreement, let's see if we can dig deeper.

HOW would you change these things? Give examples. Try to frame it in context we can understand in the current design paradigm.

Here are 2 posts I've made previously on this topic and how I would change things. I'd be curious to see your input.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ork-%28LONG%29

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Eureka-Concept

You just want to mindlessly press 1,2,3,4 as fast as you can and see your score (parse) at the end. Any real challenge would make parses useless, can't have that can we.

As a pro-parser person I disagree with this statement. That is not what I want to do (you can see an example in the link above that covers my idea of more engaging play). I also love measuring my performance and improving upon it and I love the cooperative competition that stems from it.

Take Grand Cross mecanics from Neo Exdeath, those are not your typical dodge bullets stuff. But I doubt you ever saw that.

This is actually a pretty bad example. Grand Cross Omega literally feels like a bullet hell while you're doing it. The others I'd agree with though, but you could probably come up with half a dozen better examples lol.

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run. Can't clear in 9mins 45 seconds you lose. Even if you could clear in 9 mins and 59 seconds. Just that little bit slower.

This is inaccurate. An enrage timer serves reduce the power of healers/tanks as well as hold players accountable for mistakes. Make too many, and you cannot clear.

Let's say hypothetically they removed them in the current encounter design paradigm. How do you imagine the game would move forward? Knowing what I know, it'd shift to a meta where tanks and healers are brough and DPS classes are shunned because they do not bring any tools. Tanks would be brought because they can just rotate invulns and cheese mechanics, and healers would be brought to heal any incoming damage.

[KaivaC]

At this point, both casuals and raiders have had lies and slander made about them by the other side. Outliers of one end call the others lazy and unwilling to work; outliers on the other end call their opponents "toxic" and "unwilling to treat onlookers with basic respect." Let's dispense with both here and now: those are outliers on both ends.

Agreed. There are such things as toxic raiders and there are such things as toxic casuals. It's an issue on both ends of the spectrum, though not nearly as bad or elitist as some may have players believe.

So much this sentiment. Bads are bad no matter how competent they are. Most people are not bad people though. Neither the entire casual or raiding community is a cesspool, rather both have bad eggs.

Agreed, like above. Also, thumbs up for the mention. Made me smile

My main goal in continuing this conversation is that I noticed quite a bit of anger/frustration towards people earlier in the thread who stated that they avoided raiding due to their perceptions of a toxic community. Some went to imply that these people were lying or had ulterior motives. I just don't see how this helps. Acting in this manner does nothing to try to understand how their perception developed, and worse yet, probably just helps to affirm their perceptions. I really wish folks would try more often to engage in a good spirited way to help people see past their first impressions.

I feel like this also falls in line with 'don't judge a book by its cover'. A few days ago, we've had a player jump into the forums and just outright say they quit because of terrible leveling experiences with other players. And this is outside of endgame - these are just leveling/MSQ dungeons. And I don't like that they felt what their experiences were gave them the expectation that this is how FFXIV was going to be for the rest of their time here. If they had come back, they would've seen that they had quite a bit of support to show that the community isn't like that.

It's the same here. The discussions here are not indications of a toxic community. As mentioned before, if one actually reads through the discussions (which, at this point, is a daunting task and I personally never expected this thread to go beyond 50 posts), this is not the sign of a toxic community. Nobody, not even in the discussion between myself and Bobs, have devolved into back and forth pointless attacks, though we did definitely engage in an argument. There are conflicting opinions here, but that in itself is no way an indication of a toxic community.

To be honest, if you really want to see something turning truly toxic, there is something called a 'Zexy' thread. Now those, you can make an argument for. Though to be fair, I actually haven't seen her posting on the forums in quite some time.

Sure there is... long term goals. Something this game lacks outside relic weapons. Hopefully Eureka comes through and remedies this.
You don't need content with a million mechanics for it to be fun either. That's just what our devs choose to keep churning out.

To a point, I agree. And I also have respectful hopes for Eureka as well. But with mechanics, it isn't as though they don't make sense. They all serve their purpose and challenge the party. I don't feel with the current raid tier that there are too many mechanics. Everything once you hit O3S can feel overwhelming, yeah, but it's not something that is overwhelming to the point that most players couldn't handle were they to practice.

I wasn't here when ARR originally dropped, so I don't know how small the skill gap was compared to now, and you know, to each their own, but I found most of what I've tried to be very accessible. Even O4S, though it was extremely difficult for me to do, but it wasn't overwhelming to the point that it stopped being fun. And lore-wise, the attacks that these fights throw out at you make sense to me...even though all Savage fights are essentially exaggerated recreations of what you fought in the story-mode version.

My issue doesn't tend to be the healing itself. I pretty much could solo heal A9S.

I would mess a mech and wipe the raid. Best example: In O2S when we had to go to the side without a marker, while having the 2 stack markers. Even with the camera pulled all the way back, I couldn't always see which way to go until it was too late and I would cause a wipe.

After a few of those I mostly stopped even trying.

Sorry it took me like a day to finally respond to this. It's been a rough day between school and late night work D:

I agree with the poster that was below yours - it's very difficult to see the safe spot if the raid agrees to put the markers at the edges, rather than closer to the middle where the wagon wheels are sitting. I struggled with myself immensely, mostly because when it was first released, nobody really knew the range of safe zones. If it helps, if there are issues with memorizing what mechanic is about to come, would it be possible to have a teamspeak or discord up and have somebody calling out the next mechanic about to happen? I found that helpful in Shinryu Ex because I have a really nasty habit of tunnel vision in that fight - I get focused on one mechanic that I completely forget that another mechanic is just about to go off. For example, Hypernova about to explode while I'm DPS'ing a tail and I'm not in a puddle to protect me from a near insta-kill.

[MoroMurasaki]

If it helps, if there are issues with memorizing what mechanic is about to come, would it be possible to have a teamspeak or discord up and have somebody calling out the next mechanic about to happen? I found that helpful in Shinryu Ex because I have a really nasty habit of tunnel vision in that fight - I get focused on one mechanic that I completely forget that another mechanic is just about to go off. For example, Hypernova about to explode while I'm DPS'ing a tail and I'm not in a puddle to protect me from a near insta-kill.

I had this same issue and used the same remedy with Shin EX. I was flubbing things left and right because I was so paranoid about getting caught by an icicle then someone in our FC offered to call out the sides of the platforms on which the icicles were coming for and that alleviated a lot of my stress.

Now (and I say now as in like a few weeks ago being the last time I did that fight) I've developed enough of a sense for the icicles to call them out for other people in PUGs.

I would say all the help/offers of help/suggestions on how to better enjoy endgame that are being thrown around are ultimately the best evidence for a healthy raiding community that I've seen. If I needed convincing before reading this thread I wouldn't any more. The idea that it's brought anything but transparency and realism to the ffxiv raiding community just seems a bit silly at this point.

Thank you for starting it Kavia!