Why the hate with endgame fights?

[alimdia]

Here's another thing that I really have to address - personally, I really haven't seen much toxicity, and less elitism. So I'm not exactly sure why it keeps getting brought up, particularly here in this thread. What even is elitism anymore? Is it some cliched term that just gets thrown around? Same with toxicity. Nowadays, what do those terms even mean now?

PS: I am aware of what they are supposed to mean, yes, but really...what exactly do they mean in today's community, because I've seen it in other gaming communities. I'd hate to be pointing fingers at a single company...but...you know...Overwatch, Hearthstone, and WoW are pretty brutal about this behavior. Mostly Overwatch, from what I've personally seen. *shudder* I almost never want to play Hanzo again.

Elitism isn't really a big problem as people are painting it here, but it does exist, give the fflogs discord a visit.

[KaivaC]

Elitism isn't really a big problem as people are painting it here, but it does exist, give the fflogs discord a visit.

Oh, I'm quite aware of it...I just think that elitism has been brought up more in just the 24 hours this thread was up, than there has been in-game since the start of 2018.

[DaulBan]

Oh, I'm quite aware of it...I just think that elitism has been brought up more in just the 24 hours this thread was up, than there has been in-game since the start of 2018.

Any discussion where the topic is about "Casual Content or Approach" vs "Midcore or Hardcore Content or Approach" inevitably boils down to people being jerks about one thing or another. Parser discussions, discussions about content locked behind completion, so on and so forth. This forum is sort of rare for most FFXIV communities for its almost aggressively casual portion of the fanbase which actively condemns parsing and gated content. On most discords and the subreddit they tend to get dogpiled by people who either laugh at them or shrug them off. Here is one of the few places where people actively engage with them, for whatever reason.

RE: OP specifically though, I've only raided since Midas and only casually check this forum (lol) so I can't really speak to this community's opinions on content. For most the people I meet the reasons why they complain about content is that they personally have difficulty clearing content with pugs, not with established groups. For most groups even casually interested in raiding they don't seem to complain that much about difficulty in general, much less call for nerfs for content that's as... Annoying? Irrelevant? As something like ShinEx. So personal experience doesn't line up with what you've seen yourself but that's just my social bubble and of course not representative of what you've seen and heard yourself.

[AriaFairchild]

Why don't you come over to the PvP forum to see some people who have the gall to ask for PvP shinies to be available through achievement points/Gold Saucer/etc? They don't want to work for it, but still want the rewards.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Why don't you come over to the PvP forum to see some people who have the gall to ask for PvP shinies to be available through achievement points/Gold Saucer/etc? They don't want to work for it, but still want the rewards.

Right? Cause getting 4 wins for enough to earn a body piece or weapon (at 4000 Wolf Marks, the most expensive the gear gets now) is like, impossible. /s

[Fhaerron]

I would love to see all the hate if SE ever makes every savage,ex as hard as ultimate.

Would make for a nice Sunday afternoon with popcorn.

[Gumbercules]

I don't hate the available end game, but i would like more mid core content at different sizes ie 4 man and 24 man. Also every once in a while I do feel "grindy" but kinda hoping that is what eureka is. Don't get me wrong im sure its going to be very diadem-ish, but imo diadems issue was more with "why am i even here" that just mechanically (personally thought Diadem 2.0 was markedly better but still had the "wtf am i here" issue). So diadem/potd mash-up thing sounds neat.

[Kazgrel]

Do what?

Garo gear has nothing to do with endgame pve fights and is not difficult to acquire at all. Time consuming, sure, but not difficult.

[Talraen]

I think there is no difficulty curve because new players don't actually play through all the content from the start to the finish at its original difficulty. If the end of ARR was difficulty 1, end of HW was 2, and end of SB was 3, then a player starting tomorrow would basically go from 0 (because everyone else is overgeared for ARR and SB) directly to 3. That's not a curve, it's a cliff. If you want the game to be friendly to new players, you really can't have a continuous curve forever.

[Sebazy]

I want you to imagine susano ex, but with the following differences.

Waaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiittttt!

Stop!

Do you actually know what a curve is?

-he pops up randomly in trial roulette and gives you all of 60 tomes and no weapon for a reward.

I guess not

I'm going to assume that you didn't play in early ARR? To put a long story short, the 'expert' dungeons of the time were a little more challenging, not in terms of mechanical complexity, but rather they punished you if you didn't respect them. You couldn't simply heal through most failures with little more than a regen like you can now. More importantly, many mechanics in the 'expert' dungeons were watered down copies (typically slower and more clearly telegraphed) of the mechanics you'd see later on in the EX primals. Antabooga taught you to hide behind pillars for Garuda HM whilst the Demon Wall taught you many of the fundamentals for Titan HM.

This resulted in a smooth and progressive difficulty curve with each tier leading nicely on to the next. Farming dungeons prepared you for Titan, farming Titan prepared you for Coil. I know you might find this hard to believe, but people managed just fine. Back in early ARR I was part of a series of linkshells that helped people with Titan HM clears for their relic, these weren't hardcore players, most of them didn't even bother with Coil. It was just a sizeable community of predominantly casual players that enjoyed the fight as well as helping others with it. Don't believe me? Here's a 13:47 Titan HM kill with them that got recorded and uploaded. Do you think 8 modern day Rabanastre randoms would manage to survive that long? Frankly, I don't.

What we have currently is absolutely indefensible. Leveling dungeons are routinely harder than 'Expert' dungeons (which are an insult to the term) whilst the gate keeper primals are significantly more complex and harder to learn than O1S (Which is doubly sad because these primals certainly aren't up there with the likes of Ramuh or Thordan, O1S is just that lame). Perhaps most importantly, both 24 man and end game dungeons 'teach' players that not paying attention and simply ignoring everything is A OK. Lo and behold, they step up into Savage or an EX primal and get completely annihilated doing the same things that served them well in everything prior. This is not a curve, this is a wall. Walls within a community are a bad thing IMHO.

Oh talking about O1S

O1s and lakshimi are too gimmick laden to be good teaching experiences.

Ok yes, I'll give you Lakshmi, that is most definitely a gimmick fight. O1S though? Are you actually being serious here? Lets see now:

1) Ice Floor.
2) Fireballs.
3) Tank buster tether.
4) Knockback.
5) 1 HP.

5 mechanics does not make a complex fight. Literally the sole factor that makes O1S even remotely challenging is the risk of sliding/getting pushed off the edge. That's it. A wall around the arena, the typical AoE+cleave telegraphs, some pacing tweaks and an appropriate adjustment to it's HP would make it one of the easier story primals.

How about you stop seeing in absolute extremes and actually think for a moment about what's being said?

Just annoying, no one ever really thinks about what changes actually mean for players in real practice.

Nonsense, you just can't see beyond your own blinkered prejudices here.

The skill gap between the raiding scene and casuals in early ARR was nothing like the massive gulf we've had pretty much since HW. Why? It wasn't because content was 'harder' because that just wasn't the case. I'm of the opinion that it was due to both content forcing you to respect it's mechanics at all stages of the end game as well as a much better sense of progressive difficulty especially when compared to the spikes and troughs we have today.

I don't know about that, that seems to be an exaggeration.

I can confirm that it's not, try it for yourself.

I think there is no difficulty curve because new players don't actually play through all the content from the start to the finish at its original difficulty. If the end of ARR was difficulty 1, end of HW was 2, and end of SB was 3

That's the wrong way to look at it. Instead think of how a new player would progress through the content they would face today.

Rather, a more logical difficulty curve should be something like this:

ARR Leveling dungeons > HW Leveling dungeons > SB Leveling dungeons > Expert Roulette + Story mode primals >> 24 man >> EX Primals >> Savage >>>> Ultimate.

Instead what we have is something like this:

ARR Leveling dungeons > Expert Roulette > Most Story mode primals + 24 man > HW Leveling dungeons + SB Leveling dungeons >>> O1S >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EX Primals + O2S >> O3S + O4S >>>> Ultimate.

Frankly, it might as well be a bowl of pasta with some names in it with how coherent and progressive it is. Even the above is arguably giving it more credit than it deserves.