MCH biggest issue?

[Kazzoey]

TL;DR
Heat management is what I believe to be the biggest issue, not from it's numbers, but for accessibility to it's main gimmick: tactical, heavy burst DPS to exploit burst windows.



I've enjoyed MCH since launch, even though it's DPM was known for being abysmal in many updates, it seems SE has been at a huge disconnect for the job's balance since 4.0 and this job, to me, still feels wrong. Perhaps it's just me but I feel like this job's DPM has been significantly buffed, but it's burst DPS has been somewhat broken.

I think that when MCH got revamped for 4.0, most people greatly enjoyed the new flow and style of the job from what I saw and asked. The problem was that their burst DPS was very low and their sustained DPM was downright depressing. I'm pretty sure SE wanted this class to be a tactical burst support job, and the gameplay was just about perfect to fit that style. The problem came down to raw numbers and laughable potencies for their abilities that completely reversed the effect that was intended, such as Overheat and Overdrive.
As a result, SE buffed the potencies and fixed those two major issues, but they changed heat values to being half of what they were, essentially turning their burst DPS into an inconvenient mess to get into unless everything lines up perfectly, which in practice hardly does.

As of right now, I think MCH has statistically found it's place but the rotation is far too strict due to the forced overheat mechanic and lack of convenient heat management abilities. Our heat management was fantastic on launch due to the Cooldown not being so heavy on heat loss in comparison to how quickly you can build heat with +10 heat per shot. Cooldown only equated to 2.5 GCD's worth of heat, making it an easy ability to help manage your guage. But now it cools WAY too much heat for it to be considered as convenient since now we generate heat at half the rate (Doubling our time to build heat). Now our only convenient way to force the barrel to overheat and enter our burst phase is by using Flamethrower, which is not exactly optimal for two reasons:
1. 60 sec CD can cut too close to rotations causing overheating issues in many situations. When using Cooldown, that requires Flamethrower to do two ticks of heat (a full oGCD window) to force overheat and thus break your rotation. Otherwise, you wind up sitting and waiting, not using your GCDs until Flamethrower finishes it's CD.
2. For AoE purposes, you WANT to use Flamethrower during Overheat's buff but its too difficult to overheat without using it. Using Flamethrower is a cheap way to overheat but defeats much of it's purpose as a powerful AoE damage ability. As well as many AoE phases ending too quick, further trivializing it's use into simply being an Overheat tool.


My suggestion to fix MCH hopefully once and for all til 5.0 is to either revert the heat generation back to it's 4.0 style as +10 Heat per shot. That or adjust how Cooldown works by possibly reducing it's heat loss to -15, rather than -25, and/or possibly reversing it's effects when using ammo so as to allow rapid heat buildup to help us force overheat without wasting Flamethrower and our GCD flow. This isn't a fight for higher numbers, this is more so for returning flow and accessibility to our job.
Also if they could change Flamethrower so that we can walk while it's active, that'd be great...

Perhaps this is just a me issue? But what do current MCH players and non MCH players think? And what keeps people from playing the class so that hopefully we can shed more light on why it's so under played (From what I've seen.)

[Jollyy5]

What keeps me from playing the class, (and what I've already mentioned in another MCH thread), is the ridiculously demanding opener and every Overheat rotation.

I've seen people say they are having problems pulling off the 6GCD rotation at as little as 90ms latency, meanwhile I'm playing at 180-200ms, and can't hope to pull off even the 5GCD budget rotation without at least 1000 skill speed.

[LysLuc]

Issue I've had so far with MCH's rotation is the flamethrower and my random latency spikes. I still question who tought that it was a good plan to make a gauge rely on server ticks. One moment my flamethrower gives me a heat tick in less then 1 sec and another moment it gives me a heat tick after 1.5 sec. This just makes doing a overheated wildfire a lot more annoying then it could be.

I've suggested this in another thread but what I want is for hotshot to be a trait and give us the pvp version of hotshot where you get 25 heat when executed. This would allow us to double weave upon overheat, making it a lot more easier for both people with a high latency to get 6GCD wildfires and wont make it so you can get 7GCDs by extending wildfires/overheat their duration.

[Kitfox]

First of all, 6gcd Wildfire is impossible without memespeeds (2700+ sks), second off all, 6gcd OH is impossible when overheating with a gcd (OH doesn't apply to the gcd used to initiate it).

The problem with MCH is Flamethrower. It's annoying to use and far too tight with the timing for the general population. It enables 6gcd overheats which, in my opinion, shouldn't be a thing because of the latency disparity between players. It's also counter-intuitive for AoE now that it overheats halfway through the duration. Another personal gripe I have is forced ogcd weaving during Rapid Fire which is caused by the tight OH/WF window, it's cancer especially for high latency people. Ogcd weaves during Rapid Fire have zero room for latency (gcd anim lock + ogcd anim lock = 0,75s + 0,75s = 1,5s = gcd during RF) which is even tighter than double weaves during normal gcds (0,75s + 0,75s x 2 = 2,25s < 2,5s base gcd) and even those can be a pain for people with high ping.

For MCH to actually feel comfortable to play for more people:
-Flamethrower needs to not be stupid or there needs to be another way to OH or OH needs to be a penalty instead of a gain.
-The OH/WF window needs to be longer or Rapid Fire needs to not be a thing or there needs to be less weavable ogcds.

But those things bring their own problems with them so I doubt MCH will get any adjustments. Their dps is fine so obviously they don't need any changes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Fannah]

It's not to be mean, but you should not make up fact like 6GCD Wildfire needing 2700+ sks. I have 1266sks for a 2.35GCD and I have 100% 6 GCD for my Wildfire. Then it depends on latency for other players, of course. I can even get a bit lower sks, but then it becomes luck for me about latency on top of a perfect execution (I think my record was succeeding it like once on a dummy with 2.40GCD, but yea I'm unable to make it a second time).

Also, I doubt the anim lock to be 0.75s for each skills (or I perfectly do it). But I agree they are way too long for some.

Other classes don't all have 2.5GCD in a way. Ninja, for exemple, get a lower GCD thanks to his kind of active/passive skill lowering his GCD for 70s and there is no problem for double weave. Monks got their Greased Lightning.

Why would you want OH to be a penalty? It's a bonus if well used, it's kind of a penalty if not well used.

Edit : In your opinion, game designers should balance timing around what ping? 200ms? (it's a real question). Because yes, people with high ping will have more problems than those with very low one, anyway, so I guess they have to set a limit.

[Azerhan]

I've two issues with the MCH: the Flamethrower, like everyone or most of the player, and for reasons already said, and the Turret.
Please, add to Ammo HUD or Heat gauge a "Turret is ready dude" or let the turret on the field but inactive...

[Kitfox]

It's not to be mean, but you should not make up fact like 6GCD Wildfire needing 2700+ sks.

My bad, went back to check the sks tiers. The actual number was somewhere around 2300 sks (2.2 gcd). The number comes from WF stopping to register dmg taken around 1 sec left on duration, so 3 x 1,5s + 2 x gcd must be below 9s for the gcd to register. I don't know if anyone's done real life testing on this so you might actually need more sks, but you're certainly not hitting 6 gcds in WF at 2,35s gcd. Test it for yourself and count the dmg you do and what WF does.

Also, I doubt the anim lock to be 0.75s for each skills (or I perfectly do it). But I agree they are way too long for some.

I don't know anyone who has counted frame perfect animation lock times and they do vary between abilities, but 0,70-0,75s is commonly used as the standard approximation among theorycrafters.

Other classes don't all have 2.5GCD in a way.

And that's precisely why those classes don't double weave or avoid double weaving whenever possible. MNKs for example only double weave during Riddle of Fire, which makes their gcd longer.

Why would you want OH to be a penalty?

No need to OH means no need to FT or reattach GB, so less timers to worry about and less ogcds to use.

Edit : In your opinion, game designers should balance timing around what ping? 200ms? (it's a real question). Because yes, people with high ping will have more problems than those with very low one, anyway, so I guess they have to set a limit.

I think SE has said they're designing the game to be played at 200 ms, but I don't have a source for that.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Personal opinion, but nothing felt clunkier than shots being +10 heat back in 4.0. Felt like constant hard stops to prevent OH when you didn't want to, whereas now it feels pretty smooth. I too have my Flamethrower gripes (mostly that being I'm fired of that being made out to be the most amazing thing we got in SB when it just isn't), but I've accepted it for what it is now.

Haven't done much PvE wise lately so I can't really chime in on the rest.

[Eir_Z]

It irrationally bothers me that Flamethrower is listed as an instant, but actually takes almost a full GCD before affecting heat which is unaffected by skill speed. So, it feels like a cast without a cast bar. That’s what introduces this weird floating feeling that requires a lot of practice to get a feel for. And even then, you have to have excellent reaction time and be lucky with the server tick to squeeze six GCDs into an overheat, but the consequences of failing to do so results in a less than stellar wildfire.

It’s all very odd.

[KageTokage]

They should extend Overheat's duration to 12 seconds to ensure you can get six GCDs off.

I also wish Flamethrower did decent damage like it does in PvP, enough that you'd actually want it to run its full duration whenever possible. To facilitate this, they could make Overheat's timer not actually start ticking down until Flamethrower has finished.