MCH biggest issue?

[whiskeybravo]

Just got MCH to 70 this last weekend and by far one of the most fun (albeit sometimes extremely frustrating) jobs I've played. I never played, or even leveled it, during HW so I only have SB MCH for reference.

I can't seem to relate to these complaints, though. If you can actually execute the rotation on time everything falls perfectly in place. The annoying things are disconnects and mechanic type things going on in the fight, not really with MCH itself (imo). But eh..

[Guulu]

I’m no MCH expert but I’ve played MCH from 4.0 and did all new primals and deltascape as MCH. I’m quitting MCH because I feel it is so boring after the heat generated changed to 5 and the hotshot timer “buffed” to 60s. The job’s rotation is dead outside the WF window, which is like 80% of the active time, plus all the CD usage are very scripted. (This is the same for all jobs but MCH suffer the most because of how dead the rotation is rn) It will be so much better if SE buff the combo timer by maybe 5 second so we can actually plan our WF. Also reverse the hotshot timer and heat change or add a dot will make MCH’s downtime much more fun. But anyway that’s just me.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

It works like clockwork now, as opposed to the rather clunky start/stop, forced Cooldown usage before with 10 heat. As it stands now, if you line it all up right, it's all right there when you need it again. The only "downtime" would be the barrel cooldown after an Overheat, and while that 10 seconds can feel long sometimes, it's still pretty minor. As for planning Wildfires, I do that from the moment the barrel's back on and stabilized. And as far as the rotation being "dead", if you're just 123ing your way back up and waiting for cooldown alignments, you're doing it wrong.The rotation isn't Red Mage simple, but it's also not overly complex either.

[Idolon]

And as far as the rotation being "dead", if you're just 123ing your way back up and waiting for cooldown alignments, you're doing it wrong. The rotation isn't Red Mage simple, but it's also not overly complex either.

What would you consider to be "doing it right" then? Once gauss barrel is back on, all you have left is 123 + gauss round and reloads for 30-35 seconds. I'd say that part of the rotation is even simpler than Red Mage, since you're just playing whack-a-mole with procs, one oGCD attack, and ammo.

It works like clockwork now, as opposed to the rather clunky start/stop, forced Cooldown usage before with 10 heat. As it stands now, if you line it all up right, it's all right there when you need it again.

This is actually my main issue with the job now. Heat automatically syncs up with Wildfire so long as you don't die/screw up, and the fight doesn't require you to adjust Wildfire timing in any way.

In fights with no downtime, like O1S, you never have to think about heat. The entire heat mechanic could be replaced by a 20% damage buff that triggers when you use Flamethrower and nothing would change.

In fights with downtime, you often have to make an awkward break from that clockwork cycle to delay Wildfire by a few GCDs. In O2S, you need to be absolutely perfect on your timing to avoid losing part of Wildfire to -100Gs, and again later when Wildfire coincides with Death's Gaze. In O3S, using Wildfire on White Flame will waste it, so you either need to delay Wildfire by about 3 GCDs or force the rest of your party to kill it without you.

It feels like heat is either a pointless mechanic that I never have to think about, or it's suddenly a really awkward thing I have to work around rather than something I have control over.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I'm not the world's biggest fan of the heat system overall, but I adapted as necessary. It's still entirely possible to misalign cooldowns or accidentally Overheat. I mean, you shouldn't, but raise your hand if you're not human and never make a mistake. And yes, some fights are quite irritating with interrupts, but it's your job to learn how to work best with it. When you know the encounter, you can time what you use and when much more effectively. That awkward break you mentioned used to happen a LOT more frequently, and not due to the encounter when heat was a +10, and things like Barrel Stabilizer had oddly long cooldowns.

I feel like a large reason MCH seems so inconsistent among the players is that the players are so inconsistent in what they want from it. Even SE noted that it was difficult to make changes based on feedback before 4.06 because the camp was so split. I honestly don't see how anyone at all has issues with the heat system as it currently works. ESPECIALLY when the old, common complaint about MCH was that it was "too complex". Maybe it's "too boring" or too simple now, but they took it from once again being misunderstood and excluded to being largely useful and favored for higher level content.

[Idolon]

That awkward break wasn't as bad before, because heat didn't need to be synchronized with Wildfire. You didn't suddenly have to care more about heat where you wouldn't normally, because you always had to care about heat. You would have just delayed Wildfire while managing heat the same as before.

I'd also argue that changing the heat gain from 10 to 5 did nothing to fix why the job was excluded. It was excluded because it did less damage than bard (fixed with the overheat and hot shot buffs) while having less support than bard (largely fixed with the dismantle buff). It would have been completely possible to make the job wanted without making heat into this vestigial mechanic that might as well be Raging Strikes, making the job highly latency-dependent, turning Hot Shot into something you press once a minute, and turning Cooldown into something you ideally never use for its special effect and only use because it's marginally more powerful than your regular combo.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

As I recall, Cooldown (above 50 heat) is equal to a Heated Slug Shot, so it's hardly a loss to "never use", plus in those rare occasions where you don't want to push for or need to withhold an Overheat but you're already near 90/95, that's when it still does its job as intended.

People were avoiding Overheating back then because doing so proved to be more of a loss overall than the 10% gain it gave. Buffing it and making things line up a bit more nicely made it clear that you were supposed to build and spend, not unlike some of the other jobs and their gauge mechanics, only most others don't have a forced trigger, thus you still have to plan ahead. And with proper planning, MCH has a smooth, clockwork-like rotation that still gets the job done, and done well.

I'm with the other person that said it: MCH doesn't need a massive overhaul (and we're quickly reaching the point that IF they keep screwing with it, it's only going to drive people away from playing it for lack of stability). Give it a few QoLs and it'll be just fine.

[Idolon]

As I recall, Cooldown (above 50 heat) is equal to a Heated Slug Shot, so it's hardly a loss to "never use", plus in those rare occasions where you don't want to push for or need to withhold an Overheat but you're already near 90/95, that's when it still does its job as intended.

I wasn't saying it was a damage loss to never use. I was saying it's a boring, underutilized skill now because it almost never needs to be used. I also didn't say that it was useless, but that in the ideal scenario, the only reason you use it is because it happens to be better than split shot and there's no downside to using it while overheating.

[Guulu]

My problems with current MCH are:

1. Downtime is too boring. If you've played any other dps you will know what I'm talking about. MCH has the least things to monitor, near to no positioning problem.

2. WF window is demanding yet pretty much the same. Just need to remember some principle then you're good to go. But even spamming cooldown in WF won't make your dps bad.

3. Not much adaption you need to do in current savage fight. (I'm doing BRD in ultimate for fun so I can't comment about it) Like the only "adaption" to the current raid tier is: On O2S you either use 2 ammo opener or make sure use WF the moment it's available to avoid that -100 GS. In O3S don't use WF on the white ball thing and just switch to bishop for other adds. O1S and O4S are just dummy fight with some awareness of FT timing. But for other jobs there's so much more to do.

Those reasons make playing MCH stale real quick. I see some people don't like that you can't move during FT, but for me I feel it's the only challenge left for MCH, kinda like NIN's TCJ. But the fact that FT is heavily effect by latency is annoying. If you don't have steady ping it can mess up your upcoming WF.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

It may be a difference of perception then, because outside of an overheat, I don't think of Cooldown as an attack, I think of it as a utility. Sure, I'll use it for damage where and when it makes sense to, but I'm at no loss to not use it if it's not needed in the moment. And while I never felt MCH was complex like others once said, not even in its original form, I don't personally need complexity to feel good about using it. Instead, give me something that delivers 100% so long as I manage and utilize it well. And I feel that as MCH is now, while still not perfect, it's entirely capable of that. If anything, I like that careful planning and timing of cooldowns can make for a smooth rotation, yet still there's both room for error and recovery. Situational adaptation, I see as less of a kit-based thing, and more of a player-based one. But that's just me.

EDIT: On my way to my desk, I felt like that sounded as if I was saying I didn't want the MCH kit to be flexible, and that's not how I meant it. I DO want a flexible kit, but I don't feel as if it currently isn't in any significant way.