An Alternative? to parsers..

[Nedkel]

You're misunderstanding the data in-front of you.

The variation between the top and bottom percentiles is governed by the enrage timer, the tighter the enrage, the tighter the variation. O4S drops that difference to under 10% because that's all the slack the encounter gives you. Any more and A) You wipe to enrage thus B) The run doesn't get shown in the statistics you're looking at.

A better approach would be to look at a 'rough' (And believe me, it pains me to refer to it this way) encounter where enrage isn't a problem.

First up, Hashmal, he is a good halfway house between early savage content and a punching bag, he does kill people, he does have a couple of DPS checks and it's possible for a raid to hit a point where things are unrecoverable. However, there isn't an enrage timer that I've ever seen, thus the carry potential and skill variance is massively increased.

Jobs at 10% - Jobs at 90% - Jobs at 99%

In the above data, there's between a 200% and 300% disparity from 10 to 90 percentile. Go to 99 percentile and you're adding another 50% ontop of that again.

TLDR: The DPS difference between 'good' and 'bad' teams and players is so much bigger than 20%. Some evidence to support this is linked above if you are in anyway interested in reading it (I suspect you are not).

Not really interested in the rest of your arguments as it's about as grounded in reality as a Brexit campaign.

See thats what i was talking about, and you still judge others on their numbers of DPS.
You have just shown a data on DPS numbers that includes all stages of the certain dungeon both boss'es and trash mobs, do you know what does that mean?
That means that dps is a sum of many many factors and the numbers you have shown doesnt tell a full story. The group performance could differ especially depending on a skills of a tank or a healer. If the tank or a healer are beginners they will take baby steps clearing specific dungeon, and i am pretty sure the low numbers you have shown here are due to the tanks pulling 1 group of a mobs at time, not to mention the time between each clears or groups of mobs, thats where your difference sits. Its logical the dps will do much greater dps if his tank and a healer are good enough to pull half of the dungeon and keep it, so he could throw aoe after aoe doing several times more dmg than a group with rookie tank that pull 1 group at a time.
You can see it clearly on a summoner or black mage, the differences between 10% and 90% is 270% on summoner and 295% on a black mage, the classes which benefits the most from the largest pulls.
And since you ignored the part of my post telling about the importance of deaths in the duty, i will write it again.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#boss=2009&metric=deaths&dataset=25
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#boss=2009&metric=deaths&dataset=90
The chances of dropping death are several times higher on 75% of the whole runs than on best 10%, the data shows 75% of all, you could expect these numbers to be even higher on the low end.

Thats why i have pointed out, DPS is a sum of all factors not only mechanical player skill in pulling the best dps possible.
And thats the reason that i have took the data from the stages with the boss'es, so its more fair to compare the mechanical skill of each group because there is one target to attack for the majority of the time.
Regarding the certain duty you have shown, lets release the boss stages numbers :
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#metric=fightdps&dataset=10
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#metric=fightdps&dataset=90

You can clearly see the best of the players are pulling out about 50% better damage than the worst ones.
How does that compare to the overall average dps data? Because it seem a little bit different, not like 2-3 times more.
And now take a look at the numbers of deaths
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#metric=execution&dataset=90
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#metric=execution&dataset=10

The death proportions are 1:5.36, its 530% difference of numbers of deaths between worst and best players, i am sure it had a much greater impact on their average dps performance than their mechanical skill or knowing how to execute proper combos.

Also.
Compare numbers on 10% and 90% on the "late game dungeons"
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/2#dataset=10&metric=dps
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/2#dataset=90&metric=dps

The differences between numbers suddenly are not so drastic isnt it? the score is quite good on both sides, the difference vary between classes depending on their kit.

And here i am asking you a question.
If the DPS data is biased and doesnt tell everything, do we really should judge other people over their number of DPS?
We shouldnt, so why should there be a tool for everyone to do so? It will not fix anything, but bring more problems and toxicity into the game.

What do you expect from a parser to improve in those numbers? How will it ever happen? Will the parse learn a tank to make a bigger pulls and teach him how to run each duty, will it teach healer to manage his mp pool so he will keep tanks alive and do dps at the same time? No.
It will not improve the overall playerbase performance like at all, its just a number that tells literally nothing in the long run, its useless.
The tool should be so advanced so it will tell everyone what they are doing wrong and how they could improve it.
At that point it is no longer a game.

Lets face it, official parse would make it easier to kick bad performing players from the team, if so i wish this game good luck if it happen.
The option of kicking away a baddies from the party is tempting option, but that sword has two edges and there will be always someone above you to kick you away because you will not meet their expectations, will it be current or later patches, will SE overbuff other classes and your main class not and people will just vote kick you for playing inferior choice (and there will be no excuses, since in this game you could change them in one second).
Thats what actually happen in world of wacraft all the times and i dont want it to happen in this game.

Clearly, you haven't fought O1S at ilvl 310-320 (at the time of release, most of the players in the first month were at this level), otherwise you'd know how foolish this statement was. Back then (hell, even now still), too many deaths and you will hit enrage because you will not have the DPS to clear the fight. Even if there weren't deaths, one or two underperforming DPS could still be the reason for enrage. I've been in Omega since release - yes, DPS matters that much from everyone that it helps tremendously to be able to hold other players accountable for holding the party back. Hell, I don't even have to go that high - Susano Ex had that problem for a little while - low DPS, and you won't even get past the sword phase. If your group barely cleared the sword phase both times, you will hit enrage for sure.

You can cite numbers all you want, but you do not have the personal experience to understand where pro-parser players like myself are coming from. Most, if not all, of us currently in Omega Savage have experienced at least one run in each EX/Savage fight in SB where low DPS was a problem.

*edit since I was able to digest the whole post*



People from consoles don't get a damn? Seriously? I'm amongst the console player base, and a lot of us are very much interested in our performance. You cited the Witcher 3, but that is a different type of game (not to mention single-player), with DPS players having far-less combat mechanics than Geralt or Ciri. Good players know how to squeeze out every bit of damage, while being able to perform mechanics.

I dont have experience, but i will not be quiet about the parsing, which will affect not only end game stuff, but entire game including low lvl stuff i am playing and the great part of the players as well.

And thanks for proving my point, that mechanical skill is not everything and deaths in the duty matter actually a lot.
A parse will not prevent or teach anyone how to not lame and die each step. But will a pressure "encourage" other people to improve?
How do you want to improve people that plays dps because of their anxiety and dont play a tank because its too stressful?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-You-Tank-Poll
These guys will either leave the game entirely or limit playing before they will meet other better game.
Like witcher 3 for example, duh.
With a console its easier to juggle the games, since the acceptable level of game performance is much lower than on PC and as a console player you could jump off this game and get the newest one and still be playing in 30 fps. Doing the same on PC, with this game running at 60 fps and the new one at 20 is real deal, it will you push back to the game running at 60 fps.

The question is: How many runs fail and don't show up in that statistic and how many ppl don't bother with doing that content at all because they know they're not up to it? Furthermore, the statistic is just showing runs where at least 1 person parsed and chose to upload.

I dont argue about that, i argue about a if a parse will actually make any difference and does the ability to pull 20% dps more is all that really important. It is not, knowing dungeon or duty or trial is, a parser will not teach you them.

[KaivaC]

I dont have experience, but i will not be quiet about the parsing, which will affect not only end game stuff, but entire game including low lvl stuff i am playing and the great part of the players as well.

And thanks for proving my point, that mechanical skill is not everything and deaths in the duty matter actually a lot.
A parse will not prevent or teach anyone how to not lame and die each step. But will a pressure "encourage" other people to improve?
How do you want to improve people that plays dps because of their anxiety and dont play a tank because its too stressful?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-You-Tank-Poll
These guys will either leave the game entirely or limit playing before they will meet other better game.
Like witcher 3 for example, duh.
With a console its easier to juggle the games, since the acceptable level of game performance is much lower than on PC and as a console player you could jump off this game and get the newest one and still be playing in 30 fps. Doing the same on PC, with this game running at 60 fps and the new one at 20 is real deal, it will you push back to the game running at 60 fps.

The Witcher 3 example has no argument here on account of it BEING A SINGLE GAME PLAYER GAME WITH COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MECHANICS FOR BOTH ITS COMBAT AND GAME ENGINE. If you're going to argue with another game, bring in something relevant. And I'm not even sure why you are now introducing FPS into the discussion. What does that have to do with anything that myself or other recent posters have brought up? What does that have to do with parsing? If you have a PC that cannot handle running a decent FPS, then the player either needs to upgrade or move over to PS4 - that's what I did. Still, I have no idea what you are talking about with consoles and FPS...this is a strawman argument.

Onto the subject of your tank link, it's simple: players who cannot handle tanking because it is 'too stressful' move to another role. Honestly, tanks don't have the most stressful job in endgame - it is healers a large portion of the time because they have to be able to adjust to players missing mechanics, taking damage, watching where everyone is at, etc. No, a parse will not teach anyone mechanics...but it provides a lot of information. It provides exact details on who is doing what, how they are doing it, what killed them, how active they were, etc. On that note, parse (particularly FFLOGS) can and has taught other players what the top 1% in their jobs are doing. I have used FFLOGs to see what other RDMs/SAMs/SMNs are doing, and it has worked wonders for improving my DPS. You've already admitted that you, yourself, have not been in Omega Savage yet. Regardless of whatever gaming experience you have, you don't have that experience HERE. Therefore, until you actually experience it for yourself, you simply cannot understand just by looking at numbers/videos online. And unfortunately, when you do get around to it, because of outgearing, you may not experience it until Sigmascape.

Let me reiterate that none of this even matters if you can't make it past mechanics. All of my comments thus far are meant for clear/farm parties.

[Sebazy]

See thats what i was talking about, and you still judge others on their numbers of DPS.

This is like something out of a Monty Python sketch. I'm not judging anyone, I legitimately don't care about these figures that I'm pulling from Rabanastre, nor do I care about the individuals DPS numbers contained within, what I do care about is you preaching all this nonsense as if it means anything. If you 'saw what you were talking about', you'd realise that you based you argument on a misunderstanding of the data you're referring too.

That means that dps is a sum of many many factors and the numbers you have shown doesnt tell a full story.

Yes, and the biggest factor by far is that the cream will rise to the top regardless. If I take one of my fellow DPS into Rab, the biggest issue they will likely face is enmity vs the tanks. Beyond that, not a problem.

You say that these people in the lower rankings are doing badly because they are dieing? Quite frankly, I say they are doing badly because they are not trying. Why should they? Because in their eyes, there's little to no need for it. If the 165 DPS BLM from earlier can get away with it and still get loot, then they are fine if they are doing 1.5k right?

Regarding the certain duty you have shown, lets release the boss stages numbers :
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18...dps&dataset=10
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18...dps&dataset=90

You can clearly see the best of the players are pulling out about 50% better damage than the worst ones.

What I can clearly see is that the gap between a 10th percentile pug raid and a 90th percentile one is in the order of 50%. This has little to no bearing on the best and worse players.

You're misunderstanding the data you're quoting here, or you're deliberately misrepresenting it to try and further your point. Which is it?

And now take a look at the numbers of deaths
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18...ion&dataset=90
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18...ion&dataset=10

The death proportions are 1:5.36, its 530% difference of numbers of deaths between worst and best players, i am sure it had a much greater impact on their average dps performance than their mechanical skill or knowing how to execute proper combos.

And simply putting some effort in would have had a greater impact still. Here's an O2S where both healers and tanks got killed off by someone's mechanical error as well as a multitude of other mistakes, Fretty still managed to turn a then 93 percentile score out of that and I suspect Jin managed even higher. Why is that? Because they didn't roll over and give up, that's why.

Also.
Compare numbers on 10% and 90% on the "late game dungeons"

Uhm, have you actually looked at what those 'late game dungeons' are? You might as well be pointing to a picture of a Wookie here.

And here i am asking you a question.
If the DPS data is biased and doesnt tell everything, do we really should judge other people over their number of DPS?
We shouldnt, so why should there be a tool for everyone to do so? It will not fix anything, but bring more problems and toxicity into the game.

DPS is biased, but not nearly to the degree that you seem to think. A decent player with modest gear can easily go into Rabanastre and post a solid run like clockwork if they actually try, the only external fact that will legitimately stop them in their tracks is if the tanks can't hold hate off of them. Take this as an example. Granted I didn't die but the rest of my group did multiple times. I had to keep the MT alive mostly by myself in the later half of the run and my co-healer was lagging and disconnecting quite severely to boot. I turned out 80 percentile DPS on Rofocale, and 90+ on everything else including Hashmal whilst also doing 95+ percentile HPS at the same time. Why? I'm not going to pretend I'm super awesome because I'm not. It's purely because I stuck to my ABCs and stayed focused through the storm.

What do you expect from a parser to improve in those numbers? How will it ever happen? Will the parse learn a tank to make a bigger pulls and teach him how to run each duty, will it teach healer to manage his mp pool so he will keep tanks alive and do dps at the same time? No.

Strangely enough, sending food and aid to a starving country doesn't address world peace either? Could it be because they are completely unrelated things?

[Deithwen]

See thats what i was talking about, and you still judge others on their numbers of DPS.
You have just shown a data on DPS numbers that includes all stages of the certain dungeon both boss'es and trash mobs, do you know what does that mean?
That means that dps is a sum of many many factors and the numbers you have shown doesnt tell a full story. The group performance could differ especially depending on a skills of a tank or a healer. If the tank or a healer are beginners they will take baby steps clearing specific dungeon, and i am pretty sure the low numbers you have shown here are due to the tanks pulling 1 group of a mobs at time, not to mention the time between each clears or groups of mobs, thats where your difference sits. Its logical the dps will do much greater dps if his tank and a healer are good enough to pull half of the dungeon and keep it, so he could throw aoe after aoe doing several times more dmg than a group with rookie tank that pull 1 group at a time.

I don't know if you really took the time to look at the graph, because the data he provided actually shows the DPS for Hashmal, no trash mob involved.

You can see it clearly on a summoner or black mage, the differences between 10% and 90% is 270% on summoner and 295% on a black mage, the classes which benefits the most from the largest pulls.

Same as before, no big pull here, just single target boss.

And since you ignored the part of my post telling about the importance of deaths in the duty, i will write it again.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#boss=2009&metric=deaths&dataset=25
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#boss=2009&metric=deaths&dataset=90
The chances of dropping death are several times higher on 75% of the whole runs than on best 10%, the data shows 75% of all, you could expect these numbers to be even higher on the low end.

Maybe you should accept the fact that being able to stay alive, doing mecanics while providing great DPS and use your CDS well to survive longer if the healer is bad is what makes good DPS players good ? And players that die all the time while pulling such low numbers could just be, you know, bad ? A dead DPS doesn't DPS. Staying alive is also a DPS's job and removing completly from the equation just to serve your point is fallacious.

Thats why i have pointed out, DPS is a sum of all factors not only mechanical player skill in pulling the best dps possible.
And thats the reason that i have took the data from the stages with the boss'es, so its more fair to compare the mechanical skill of each group because there is one target to attack for the majority of the time.
Regarding the certain duty you have shown, lets release the boss stages numbers :
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#metric=fightdps&dataset=10
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#metric=fightdps&dataset=90

I fail to understand what you want this data to say. We're comparing player performance, and you are trying to make conclusions from a group performance average graph ? With average players put together via DF ? Of course the difference will be lower, everything is random and averaged here. It gives no information on party comp and player contribution, and player skill.

You can clearly see the best of the players are pulling out about 50% better damage than the worst ones.
How does that compare to the overall average dps data? Because it seem a little bit different, not like 2-3 times more.
And now take a look at the numbers of deaths
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#metric=execution&dataset=90
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/18#metric=execution&dataset=10

The death proportions are 1:5.36, its 530% difference of numbers of deaths between worst and best players, i am sure it had a much greater impact on their average dps performance than their mechanical skill or knowing how to execute proper combos.

What is that ? You mean you actually found a correlation between low DPS and number of death ? Yes of course the worse players won't DPS much if they spend the rest of the game tanking the floor. But staying alive is part of the job : fail mecanics and you die. Don't fail, don't die. The only reason a good DPS would die while executing mecanics perfectly would be that the healers DC, or fail to heal expected damages, or even ripping aggro off from the tank. As I said being able to stay alive while doing great DPS is what differentiates players. Being able to execute a rotation only on a dummy says a lot regarding their skill, or rather, lack of.

Also.
Compare numbers on 10% and 90% on the "late game dungeons"
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/2#dataset=10&metric=dps
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/2#dataset=90&metric=dps

The differences between numbers suddenly are not so drastic isnt it? the score is quite good on both sides, the difference vary between classes depending on their kit.

I really don't know what to say here. Did you actually look at the graphs you're showing ? Did you notice the ridiculous amount of parses there are for those ? No one parses "late game dungeons". There is absolutly nothing to say about those numbers that are just void of sense.

And here i am asking you a question.
If the DPS data is biased and doesnt tell everything, do we really should judge other people over their number of DPS?
We shouldnt, so why should there be a tool for everyone to do so? It will not fix anything, but bring more problems and toxicity into the game.

You are assuming it would create problems, you have no proof nor fact to backup this statement. The bias you tend to put forward is mostly exagerated as I explained earlier and the gap is a lot wider than you tend to fallaciously demonstrate.

What do you expect from a parser to improve in those numbers? How will it ever happen? Will the parse learn a tank to make a bigger pulls and teach him how to run each duty, will it teach healer to manage his mp pool so he will keep tanks alive and do dps at the same time? No.
It will not improve the overall playerbase performance like at all, its just a number that tells literally nothing in the long run, its useless.
The tool should be so advanced so it will tell everyone what they are doing wrong and how they could improve it.
At that point it is no longer a game.

Most people are absolutly clueless about their performance and actual lack of skill. Being able to access that information would be a great step forward for those who actually don't want to be burdens for others. Athough, no one said it would make everyone good or able to deal with trivial things. But it will provide the tools to improve, for everyone, not just the PC playerbase.

Lets face it, official parse would make it easier to kick bad performing players from the team, if so i wish this game good luck if it happen.
The option of kicking away a baddies from the party is tempting option, but that sword has two edges and there will be always someone above you to kick you away because you will not meet their expectations, will it be current or later patches, will SE overbuff other classes and your main class not and people will just vote kick you for playing inferior choice (and there will be no excuses, since in this game you could change them in one second).
Thats what actually happen in world of wacraft all the times and i dont want it to happen in this game.

Thing is, it's already the case. People will kick those who don't want to make any effort and expect to get carried. Actually people can kick for almost every reason they want.
Also the part about Job buffs, are you serious ? that " will SE overbuff other classes and your main class not and people will just vote kick you for playing inferior choice ". It already occured when 3.0, bard and mch weren't wanted for 2 reasons : average player at those job was really bad and the jobs needed a buff. I fail to see how having official parsers would change any of that, it won't happen more, it won't happen less.