An Alternative? to parsers..

[Nedkel]

Dungeons & Dragons is a game too. Try taking this attitude into a party in that, just screw around with no effort and make everyone work harder to deal with you. See how well that works when the other players are sitting at the same table with you. (FYI: Poorly.)

If you're doing stuff with other people, there's a basic expectation that you will do your share. If you're arguing that you shouldn't be held to that expectation and deseve to be carried because reasons, try taking that attitude into real life groups and see how it goes.

Yeah thanks for spamming blizzard and not doing foul or fire aoe on trash. Thanks to the rdm doing jolt on 10 packs of mob when jolt doesn't aoe. Thanks for playing like you were afk, thanks for slowing the run because someone who just got back from work wanted to do the previous day expert roulette before reset. Thank you for not trying. Thank you for making it fun for yourself and not everyone else in the group. Thank you for playing this game like it was a solo game and no people are around you.

But would you be happy to wait additional 10 minutes in the queue, due to the low playerbase issues and less people playing a tank or a healer?
With parser available for everyone, those 2 roles will get increased attention and pressure as well as dps role, because why they shouldnt?
Oh you are a paladin and does 5% of the entire team dps, because you are pulling large amount of mobs and your aoe is non existent or your team is overpowering your enimity and need to spam flash? Get called.
Your tank is a soft noodle and you dont have MP to waste it for dps? You will get called.


With parser so easy to use and supported by SE, there will be people who will use it just to harass mindlessly others because of their dps.
You guys are so worried about the others who afk or spam one button, but forget about those who just cant do that well for various reasons, and they will get harassed more often than those who doesnt care.
You will create a solid ground with in game parser for those seeking excuses, the biggest toxicity victims will be those who doesnt play well or are new to the game or class.

[akaneakki]

But would you be happy to wait additional 10 minutes in the queue, due to the low playerbase issues and less people playing a tank or a healer?

Do you really think people will play healer and tank less if a parser was going to happen? Really? No it wouldn't. It would probably be the same or some people would actually open their eyes when it comes to healing and tanking. An average non dps healer is idle about 23-26% of a whole dungeon. If you small pull they idle even up to 35-38% of a dungeon. The biggest victims will still be those who try to let others improve or try to help others, just like now. We have people not willing to try in any duty, expert, raids and primals, so we are punnished by struggling the clear because someone decides not wanting to improve. If a tank is a soft noodle then the parser will say it, because it will say how often he used the cds. Also why would PLD spam flash? You do maybe 1 then you spam the hell out of total eclipse. I rarely see PLD doing that and there is no reason not to.

Gonna call bs on that you were 260 when zurvan came out you didn't raid at all in creator? also teh fact the you killed him for the first time a few days after somehow i doubt if you were skipping soar in full 260 surly you would of had a clear. But that's as far as I'll go with that

Heard about alt classes? I had 270 drg but a 255 smn.

[F_Maximillian]

But would you be happy to wait additional 10 minutes in the queue, due to the low playerbase issues and less people playing a tank or a healer?
With parser available for everyone, those 2 roles will get increased attention and pressure as well as dps role, because why they shouldnt? Oh you are a paladin and does 5% of the entire team dps, because you are pulling large amount of mobs and your aoe is non existent or your team is overpowering your enimity and need to spam flash? Get called.
Your tank is a soft noodle and you dont have MP to waste it for dps? You will get called.

I noticed that your highest level is 59 and you also cited experience from WoW in a previous post. I also noticed that your gear isn't up to date (probably because the first run through the story) but your weapon especially is far behind and weapon is incredibly important for holding aggro as a tank. Being behind on the gear curve and being new will definitely contribute to difficulty holding aggro, if you're having any (I assume one of your examples was personal experience of people pulling from you). At risk of stating the obvious, this game is not WoW and your experience while leveling in regards to aggro can be vastly different to your experience at 70 with aggro. Even while leveling though, especially since stormblood has been released, all 3 tanks are capable of putting out some incredibly good aoe dps. Even in heavensward before paladin got total eclipse they were able to put out respectable damage by rotating their goring blade combos on individual mobs to multidot a pack and since stormblood have gotten a very nice spammable aoe skill. Obviously there will be outlier runs where your dps are super good and ripping aggro from you (or not managing their aggro which is more likely) or a tank will be super undergeared or not using their cooldowns (this already happens) but overall the fact you think tanks do no damage and healers never have time/mp to do any damage is a point in favor of parsers. You would know these things aren't true if the game would just show you the numbers. You would see tanks on the whole contribute quite a bit more than 5% damage, especially on boss fights where their damage can close in on some of the dps classes (paladin and warrior are actually tied for the most damage out of the tanks with dark knight trailing behind). You would see that healers, on trash pulls especially, can put out damage that outdoes some of the dps classes or at the very least is still substantial.

We know this because people parse and see. We don't see many people knowing it because unless they parse or look up guides/videos from other people who provide this evidence they don't know it and their prior game experience (WoW experience seems to be both a blessing and a curse in regards to FFXIV from what I've seen) actually undermines learning about how things work on this particular game. If this information was visible in game for everyone then maybe tanks that don't use cooldowns would see that using cooldowns makes their healer's damage go higher and the runs go quicker, maybe dps and tanks would see that the seemingly pathetic 1k damage hit from their aoe is actually really good because it's hitting 5+ things at once, and maybe healers would be happy to see they can generally match or out-do dps classes on trash pulls because all 3 healers have some godly aoe ability when they normally think healers have no offensive capability at all.

I don't blame you or anyone else who doesn't have the numbers behind it for not knowing these things because at a glance a lot of what people are saying sounds counter intuitive. If we had an in-game parser I think more people would realize what their classes are actually capable of and toxicity would stay the same if not go down. People wouldn't need to say anything because the information would be there in front of them so nobody needs to say anything. There's far more people that play the game and don't parse than those that do. The majority of the playerbase (at least personality wise) is overall pleasant to be around. I doubt all the people who say hello at the beginning of an instance and strike up idle chatter during a dungeon would suddenly turn into elitist number demons because the information was plainly visible. We as players deserve to have this information on hand, especially since the game itself does nothing to explain things. I've never seen another game so determined to hide crucial info from players nor a playerbase so determined to keep that information hidden..

[KaldeaSahaline]

And no it's not due to the absence of parsers. I met plenty of bad players in WoW who had parsers. They didn't feel magically inspired to do their best, they just did the bare minimum that gave them a quiet life. Which sometimes wasn't enough in top tier content, and obviously it caused problems.

Improvement is one mere aspect of the pro parser player. It's accountability through and through that is the main draw. When players make that decision to not care about their performance, it lets others know and they can avoid them; those like-minded players can band together to "respect the content" and others can band together to "respect the team".

Well no, they're not. Average players play just fine. I mean, this is why they're called average. Not amazing but certainly acceptable.

You're implying that the player skill average is a normal distribution curve, we don't know for a fact.

IMO FF14's skill curve is probably a very front loaded bell curve, thus I'd suspect the average to be well below a player skill midpoint. I have no data to back this up, this is merely my opinion based on parsing this game since ACT came out and observing the numbers. Always welcome to discussion.

Lemme ask you a question, why do we need the parser for?
The only 2 reasons i know is:
- "because i want to improve to the very last inch" and thats completely fine
- Because noob team in duty finder in PVE and i seek for excuses why i lose time with randoms.

The second one is absurd as it sounds, you do not expect from bunch of randoms any level of the play, if you are queuing up for solo activity whatever game you play you have to expect the worst. That or search for some guild/free company that plays nicely and together.
Doesnt matter if it is ESO, blade and soul, wow or FF xiv, random dps players contains everyone, from someone playing on a microwave with 5 fps to someone that plays like a dota playing AI doing no mistakes at all.
The only thing not fair it that, dps is much easier role comparing to the tanks or healers, and i believe they should be rewarded greater for the harder job, not making dps harder because thats practially impossible without backlash.

Sorry, not falling for your trap No matter how much I want to dismantle your statements and make you look even sillier, I won't fall for it again.

But what they failed to acknowledge was that adding parsers to teh WIDER majority is going to substantially increase the rate of abuse proportional to the population.

Source? I'd love to read the dataset you analyzed to reach that conclusion.

In duty finder? Accountable for what? It is a freaking game, you. Why are some people so obsessed with that? Don't you like how bad most of us poor mortals play in the duty finder? Good for you. Party finder is your tool. Use it, enjoy itl, and leave us poor mortals alone. See how easy it is?

Preface: You know, you lost the last iota of credibility you had by responding in such a childish and emotional manner. Should have just stuck to your viewpoint and defended it with reasonable analysis and examples or attempted to refute mine with a similar approach (which you failed miserably at, mind you).

I'm slightly disappointed you went with the "it's just a game" trope, I sincerely had hoped you had a better argument than something that's been dismantled time and time again.

It is a team game just like any recreational sport. That means you are responsible for your contributions. If you deliberately do things to make it more difficult for others there are consequences. That is why accountability is important. You're advocating that your singular "experience" is more valuable than others. Pro parser people are advocating for playing your best and making sure everything goes smoothly so everyone has a good time. It's people like me trying to do the most I can, to be the best I can be so that YOU can have a better experience.

And before you go on about "harassment this" and "harassment that", just stop. Harassment has nothing to do with parsing. It is it's own issue and has numerous current solutions in place to handle it.

[Nedkel]

I noticed that your highest level is 59 and you also cited experience from WoW in a previous post. I also noticed that your gear isn't up to date (probably because the first run through the story) but your weapon especially is far behind and weapon is incredibly important for holding aggro as a tank. Being behind on the gear curve and being new will definitely contribute to difficulty holding aggro, if you're having any (I assume one of your examples was personal experience of people pulling from you). At risk of stating the obvious, this game is not WoW and your experience while leveling in regards to aggro can be vastly different to your experience at 70 with aggro. Even while leveling though, especially since stormblood has been released, all 3 tanks are capable of putting out some incredibly good aoe dps. Even in heavensward before paladin got total eclipse they were able to put out respectable damage by rotating their goring blade combos on individual mobs to multidot a pack and since stormblood have gotten a very nice spammable aoe skill. Obviously there will be outlier runs where your dps are super good and ripping aggro from you (or not managing their aggro which is more likely) or a tank will be super undergeared or not using their cooldowns (this already happens) but overall the fact you think tanks do no damage and healers never have time/mp to do any damage is a point in favor of parsers. You would know these things aren't true if the game would just show you the numbers. You would see tanks on the whole contribute quite a bit more than 5% damage, especially on boss fights where their damage can close in on some of the dps classes (paladin and warrior are actually tied for the most damage out of the tanks with dark knight trailing behind). You would see that healers, on trash pulls especially, can put out damage that outdoes some of the dps classes or at the very least is still substantial.

We know this because people parse and see. We don't see many people knowing it because unless they parse or look up guides/videos from other people who provide this evidence they don't know it and their prior game experience (WoW experience seems to be both a blessing and a curse in regards to FFXIV from what I've seen) actually undermines learning about how things work on this particular game. If this information was visible in game for everyone then maybe tanks that don't use cooldowns would see that using cooldowns makes their healer's damage go higher and the runs go quicker, maybe dps and tanks would see that the seemingly pathetic 1k damage hit from their aoe is actually really good because it's hitting 5+ things at once, and maybe healers would be happy to see they can generally match or out-do dps classes on trash pulls because all 3 healers have some godly aoe ability when they normally think healers have no offensive capability at all.

I don't blame you or anyone else who doesn't have the numbers behind it for not knowing these things because at a glance a lot of what people are saying sounds counter intuitive. If we had an in-game parser I think more people would realize what their classes are actually capable of and toxicity would stay the same if not go down. People wouldn't need to say anything because the information would be there in front of them so nobody needs to say anything. There's far more people that play the game and don't parse than those that do. The majority of the playerbase (at least personality wise) is overall pleasant to be around. I doubt all the people who say hello at the beginning of an instance and strike up idle chatter during a dungeon would suddenly turn into elitist number demons because the information was plainly visible. We as players deserve to have this information on hand, especially since the game itself does nothing to explain things. I've never seen another game so determined to hide crucial info from players nor a playerbase so determined to keep that information hidden..

I actually looked into the numbers, and what i had took from it is that, since everyone is talking about omega duty and how their run has been ruined by low dps, this has been pretty much made up.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...dps&dataset=90
At 90% percintle, so i believe it is 10% top best runs, the average team damage in all instances was going around 28k.
At the top 10% worst runs its 22.6k for entire party.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...dps&dataset=10

And thats 20% of the dps difference between the best teams and the worst teams.
According to the timer and the numbers, the bare minimum for this certain dungeon sits at 20k dps, so even the lowest teams running this dungeons are able to finish it unless they will wipe. And take into consideration the numbers of deaths each instance, and ask the question.
If they died many times, does it means their mechanical skill is not all that bad comparing to the best ones? How would the numbers looks like, if the lowest performing guys would have the same death ratio as the best performing ones?

How do you think, how much of a improvement a official in game parser would bring into the late game actually? Because i can read right and left, people dont know how to play their classes and they suck because they dont have parser, how does it affect the game and how will it be repaired like at all after releasing parser?
Nothing would change, at least significant.
Why do some guys are obsessed so much about the perfomance, this game is not that hard to play and the combos are kids play comparing to the game like blade and souls, come on. I dont have a parser and i know how to execute my combos right as Paladin, it took me some online research thats all. If someone is whiling to learn how to play, he will do it regardless if he has in game parser or not, majority of the players are playing on PC, where its not a rocket science difficult to get a parser if they really need it, people from the consoles just dont give a damn about something called "performance", they will either play this game or exit > proceed into witcher 3, would they use a parser? Dont be joking, navigating with the controller is already a bich.
Teaching people how to do dungeon mechanics properly would have much greater impact on their performance than knowing how to squeeze out 50 potency each second more. You will not pull out high numbers if you dont know how to fight bosses and keep dying each time you encounter a boss. A single digits of two will not force some guys to start using aoe skills on groups of mobs, that will not gonna happen, forget about it, and i think its pretty much a made up problem, since i have run multiple dungeons on low levels and stuff and i see people using their skills properly, like for example aoe, no idea when this myth come from, presuming like nobody has a common sense.
DPS anyway is the sum of hundreds of factors not only skills or game knowledge, you could know how to play the game, but your latency would not let you, because you would teleport around dungeon dying.

Players are being kicked away in wow even before the dungeon starts, because parsers have their addons showing the guys average entire performance, the only thing the official recount improved was the number of kicked players from the party on any type of the dungeons, it happens even on low lvl stuff, like really...
And do people get harassed in wow because of their performance? You can see hundreds of threads about it there on reddit or forums.
While the both games are different, they are based on pretty same principle, do dmg, do mechanics, dont mess your rotation, dps-tank-healer team. Both games are almost same to the core, give world of warcraft FF xiv graphics and you wouldnt tell the difference.
The parser will have the same affect on FF xiv like it did on WoW, if not even bigger, because our game is balanced and based around dps to the much higher degree than wow, here even healers are asked to do dps.

Square enix and many mmorpg developers have their reason to not let players judge other players performance.
The playerbase in world of warcraft was also pleasant at the begining and it turned out to be as toxic as moba games.

[Slick7]

I actually looked into the numbers, and what i had took from it is that, since everyone is talking about omega duty and how their run has been ruined by low dps, this has been pretty much made up.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...dps&dataset=90
At 90% percintle, so i believe it is 10% top best runs, the average team damage in all instances was going around 28k.
At the top 10% worst runs its 22.6k for entire party.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...dps&dataset=10

And thats 20% of the dps difference between the best teams and the worst teams.

The question is: How many runs fail and don't show up in that statistic and how many ppl don't bother with doing that content at all because they know they're not up to it? Furthermore, the statistic is just showing runs where at least 1 person parsed and chose to upload.

[KaivaC]

I actually looked into the numbers, and what i had took from it is that, since everyone is talking about omega duty and how their run has been ruined by low dps, this has been pretty much made up.

Clearly, you haven't fought O1S at ilvl 310-320 (at the time of release, most of the players in the first month were at this level), otherwise you'd know how foolish this statement was. Back then (hell, even now still), too many deaths and you will hit enrage because you will not have the DPS to clear the fight. Even if there weren't deaths, one or two underperforming DPS could still be the reason for enrage. I've been in Omega since release - yes, DPS matters that much from everyone that it helps tremendously to be able to hold other players accountable for holding the party back. Hell, I don't even have to go that high - Susano Ex had that problem for a little while - low DPS, and you won't even get past the sword phase. If your group barely cleared the sword phase both times, you will hit enrage for sure.

You can cite numbers all you want, but you do not have the personal experience to understand where pro-parser players like myself are coming from. Most, if not all, of us currently in Omega Savage have experienced at least one run in each EX/Savage fight in SB where low DPS was a problem.

*edit since I was able to digest the whole post*

Why do some guys are obsessed so much about the perfomance, this game is not that hard to play and the combos are kids play comparing to the game like blade and souls, come on. I dont have a parser and i know how to execute my combos right as Paladin, it took me some online research thats all. If someone is whiling to learn how to play, he will do it regardless if he has in game parser or not, majority of the players are playing on PC, where its not a rocket science difficult to get a parser if they really need it, people from the consoles just dont give a damn about something called "performance", they will either play this game or exit > proceed into witcher 3, would they use a parser? Dont be joking, navigating with the controller is already a bich.
Teaching people how to do dungeon mechanics properly would have much greater impact on their performance than knowing how to squeeze out 50 potency each second more. You will not pull out high numbers if you dont know how to fight bosses and keep dying each time you encounter a boss. A single digits of two will not force some guys to start using aoe skills on groups of mobs, that will not gonna happen, forget about it, and i think its pretty much a made up problem, since i have run multiple dungeons on low levels and stuff and i see people using their skills properly, like for example aoe, no idea when this myth come from, presuming like nobody has a common sense.
DPS anyway is the sum of hundreds of factors not only skills or game knowledge, you could know how to play the game, but your latency would not let you, because you would teleport around dungeon dying.

People from consoles don't get a damn? Seriously? I'm amongst the console player base, and a lot of us are very much interested in our performance. You cited the Witcher 3, but that is a different type of game (not to mention single-player), with DPS players having far-less combat mechanics than Geralt or Ciri. Good players know how to squeeze out every bit of damage, while being able to perform mechanics.

[RiyahArp]

The biggest cause of low dps is death, imo. You hit enrage you mostly have died a lot; rotations at this point aren't that complex compared to HW that you see huge range of DPS from players for most jobs. But the raise penalty combined with time on the floor will kill your output. Two deaths in succession and you are at 50% dmg or so; get multiple dps who hit the floor and thats enrage. 'm not sure DPS checks in general now are as tight and the rotations as hard as in HW, and a lot of the complaining is about optimizing DPS for farm runs, not clears.

[KaivaC]

snip

The biggest cause, yes, but there have been a good number of runs where you simply lack the damage to clear. I didn't mean to make it sound like the majority, only challenging the person I quoted because they're talking about content that they simply have not experienced, unless they have an alt, which it doesn't seem like. As they stand right now with people overgearing? No, it's not as big of an impact as it was back when we were still mostly 310-320.

[Sebazy]

I actually looked into the numbers, and what i had took from it is that, since everyone is talking about omega duty and how their run has been ruined by low dps, this has been pretty much made up.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...dps&dataset=90
At 90% percintle, so i believe it is 10% top best runs, the average team damage in all instances was going around 28k.
At the top 10% worst runs its 22.6k for entire party.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...dps&dataset=10

And thats 20% of the dps difference between the best teams and the worst teams.
According to the timer and the numbers, the bare minimum for this certain dungeon sits at 20k dps, so even the lowest teams running this dungeons are able to finish it unless they will wipe. And take into consideration the numbers of deaths each instance, and ask the question.

You're misunderstanding the data in-front of you.

The variation between the top and bottom percentiles is governed by the enrage timer, the tighter the enrage, the tighter the variation. O4S drops that difference to under 10% because that's all the slack the encounter gives you. Any more and A) You wipe to enrage thus B) The run doesn't get shown in the statistics you're looking at.

A better approach would be to look at a 'rough' (And believe me, it pains me to refer to it this way) encounter where enrage isn't a problem.

First up, Hashmal, he is a good halfway house between early savage content and a punching bag, he does kill people, he does have a couple of DPS checks and it's possible for a raid to hit a point where things are unrecoverable. However, there isn't an enrage timer that I've ever seen, thus the carry potential and skill variance is massively increased.

Jobs at 10% - Jobs at 90% - Jobs at 99%

In the above data, there's between a 200% and 300% disparity from 10 to 90 percentile. Go to 99 percentile and you're adding another 50% ontop of that again.

TLDR: The DPS difference between 'good' and 'bad' teams and players is so much bigger than 20%. Some evidence to support this is linked above if you are in anyway interested in reading it (I suspect you are not).

Not really interested in the rest of your arguments as it's about as grounded in reality as a Brexit campaign.