An Alternative? to parsers..

[Selova]

snip.

Yeah, I'm not slogging through that entire novel you just wrote, the enter key is your friend.


You seem to like putting words into people's mouths, I've never said, not once that the game needs a parser to be successful, it should be obvious FFXIVs success has nothing to do with parsers.


The only thing I've ever said is that people need to dial back a bit on using over exaggerated anecdotes as facts when it comes to a official parser and it how it spells doom for the game as a whole.


I highly recommend you at least read posts you respond to in the future, thanks.

[akaneakki]

Do you really think that the devs would leave the rotations and gameplay just as it is right now if they introduced a parser? Really? I mean, really?

Gonna ask you a question before I'll tell you why, well 2 actually. 1: Is AoE hard to perform in a dungeon? 2: If 1 person does 8k and 1 does 1k, the person doing 1k was mostlikely afk, so why are they afk in a dungeon?

[Tridus]

The thing is, it doesn't even have to be in reality. It can be perception. Everyone was like "omg, its not hard, just do a basic opener" and yet from the sheer salt apparently 75% of people who did ex trials failed at doing a basic opener. Its like ice mages; I've been playing this game for nigh on 3 years now and I've never even seen one, yet its the go to example whenevr ppl talk about bad dps.

Here's one doing less than 200 DPS in Rabanastre, although I think they did use a fire spell.

https://youtu.be/wAJ9InV3-MI

Enjoy!

[Tridus]

The king of mmo who lost 80% of its original playerbase within few years

WoW is over 13 years old and is still by far the largest MMO on the market. If that's failure, sign me up for some failure. Also, what are you basing that number on? I sure hope it's not a Blizzard subscriber count compared to Warcraft Census count that I already debunked.

how does it compare to other online games available on the market like Lol, cs go, dota 2?

It doesn't, since none of those are subscription MMOs.

These games are still growing and developing, i dont see them failing apart as fast as wow.

Almost like the market shifted and players moved on to different genres entirely. Shocking!

The game is losing its playerbase for a reason

Yeah, it's 13 years old, the current expansion is basically done, and the new one doesn't have a release date yet. Not exactly an abnormal market pattern for MMOs.

balancing and designing entire game around numbers and dps, this does not work well for the game.

As opposed to a mythical time when they didn't do that? You are aware that meters existed in vanilla, and thus were in use when the game rose to be as big as it was, right? One of the earliest usages was to notice people in 40 person raids going AFK on bosses (all of which were DPS and a lot of which were Hunters). They thought that was "toxic" too when they got called out on it. The rest of us who were carrying them felt their behavior was what was actually toxic, and that got stomped out when it became clear you couldn't get away with it anymore.

Instead of refreshing game mechanics and graphics, it boils in its own sauce in prior to cater the minority of the playerbase who use combat meters. And so, that minority is what they had left from being very first successful game to the king of the dying game genre.

Let me use the same logic you're using: WoW has a full glamour log system. WoW is in decline. Therefore the problem is catering to the minority of the playerbase that cares about glamour.

What does it bring to the gameplay? Literally nothing, it just opens the window for the mad players to blame the others when they dont meet their expectations, over a PVE. Its really stupid if you think about it, since the dps score overall is the sum of all factors in the game and its not the really clear indicator of someone ability to play the game.

If you're playing a DPS job, doing 160 DPS in Rabanastre is an extremely clear indicator of someone's ability to play the game. Either that or an indicator of their desire to watch Netflix and get carried.

Specific boss mechanics, trash mobs mechanics, support buffs from other party member, the job type, quality of the EQ, does tank pull a ton or just few at the time, does the tank died few times and dps had to run around, it all affects the dps, so calling each person over their poor performance is a big nonsense.

Except the tank here would get called out on poor performance. Why should DPS get a pass?

Some people will argue, how do i get better at game without the numberz? Well if someone is willing to get better at the game and learn, he still has to look for some guides online and could watch few guides on youtube from someone experienced with specific job, thats more than enough for the game. Maxing the build and rotation in order to pull 99.999% performance is not what you are asked for in this game by anyone, if you get bored and need some challenge, change the class to tank and stop playing ezy mode dps, simple lol.

And where do you think the guides come from? The people making them first have to figure out what the optimal rotation is. They do that by using parsers.

Again, if you expect duty finder to give you a decent players with perfect EQ then you may as well try playing lotto, because these are the minority overall. The rest of the people are either mediocore, bad, dont care, dont have time to spend into the game or their item level just barely hits the requirement, its just the way it is, like in any other game, there is a half above average and the other below average.

Would be cool if you said something of any substance here, but okay.

Sure you could force them to get better at the game, and for sure you will fail on it, same as blizzard failed on their mmo.

Your definition of failure is very unique. There isn't a MMO developer on the planet who wouldn't trade places with Blizzard this second. SE included. WoW is the most successful MMO ever made by such a huge margin that nobody else is in the same league.

A parser will not encourage them to get better, a number is just a number, it still will be up to them if they are going to search the internet for some guides or not. More often, they will just get annoyed and experience calling on their performance from other party members for playing badly. Why should someone like that baddy bother being harrased for few numbers, when he could play Rsix or pubg?

Someone playing badly in PBUG is going to just get themselves killed a lot, which is just fine. Someone playing badly on a CoD team is most definitely getting called out on it with language far worse than anything you'll find in XIV.

[Remyogic]

But....that already happens...in Rabanastre...in Omega Savage....happened for a good while in The Royal Menagerie....

Good King Moogle...
Leviathan HM and Ex...
Pretty much any 8-man content, it has happened. Except Ifrit currently. But I'm sure it's happened there too.

I don't know, my experiences have been different from this statement. Either my experience is the exception or yours is......

I've been in several "bad" Rabanastre groups and no one ever said anything rude or offensive.

Just last night I landed in Royal Menagerie via Trial Roulette with 3 first timers; the group wiped 3 times before a clear on the fourth attempt and each wipe was met with positive and reinforcing talk.

I think that the FFXIV community in general is a very friendly and helpful one; by far the best of any game I have ever played, MMO or otherwise. Will the introduction of wide-spread parsers change that? I doubt it.

[Selova]

snip

^Not all hero's wear capes. Nailed it right on the head. Thanks for saying what I was feeling Tridus.

[Erik501]

Gonna ask you a question before I'll tell you why, well 2 actually. 1: Is AoE hard to perform in a dungeon? 2: If 1 person does 8k and 1 does 1k, the person doing 1k was mostlikely afk, so why are they afk in a dungeon?

First question: I find it extremely easy on PLD, DRK, WAR and SAM. On the other jobs I can't tell since I don't have them at a level high enough to know. Second question (sort of xD): that guy/girl was not afk. Simply clueless, probably a case of somebody who has never played an mmo and nobody has ever tried to help them. Do you want to know what I did? This:

8k + 1k + 2k + 2k = 13k total -> I can pull wall to wall. And wall to wall I pulled, with some silly jokes along the way as I usually do. It was nice, smooth, fast and fun. No drama whatsoever.

[akaneakki]

No drama whatsoever.

First of all, I rarely see sam's out there doing aoe, so funny you mention that. RDM; scatter, why the hell would you jolt pack of 10 adds? MNK? Simple, instead of demolish and snap punch you do rockbreaker, drg? Doom spike into sonic thrust? BLM?Certainly not freeze, so explain to me why is it a hard thing to look on your tool tip, you know.... after 60-70 levels? Also what are those numbers? Is that the dps, tank healer and dps or tank, healer dps dps? I don't follow? Either way, on a mob of mob where someone did 8k, certainly 2k was single target, so yeah, wow, aoe is certainly a hard ask. Can we please stop pretend that people don't have fingers and hands anymore? They dumbed down the rotations in SB and it feels like it didn't do anything because people can't read tool tips. Yeah must be hard to hit flare when you are almost out of MP, or foul when you can? Why the hell would a BLM freeze in a first place. So again, lets stop pretend people dont have fingers and hands anymore, because that's pretty much going on..

And to reply to what you said earlier: Yes they can still add a parser with the current rotation, because... dum dum dum there is only 1-2 buttons to click to do aoe, so yeah they can. Again, stop pretend people don't have fingers and hands.

[KaldeaSahaline]

The game is losing its playerbase for a reason, balancing and designing entire game around numbers and dps, this does not work well for the game. Instead of refreshing game mechanics and graphics, it boils in its own sauce in prior to cater the minority of the playerbase who use combat meters. And so, that minority is what they had left from being very first successful game to the king of the dying game genre.

Snip, etc.

Honestly I was going to respond to every single flat out inaccurate or misguided statement you made refuting your asinine statements, but I must admit you're quite possible one of the best trolls I've seen in a while. You win man, well played. Keep on keepin on. You may fool those other posters, but you're not fooling me. No self respecting intellectual would ACTUALLY believe the drivel that you're writing, especially with how laughably hypocritical you'd have to be to say those things without even realizing that FF14 has the EXACT same issues.

10/10 dude.

No, some of us come from games in which in-game parsers were commonplace and had to endure so much needless drama because of them. I'd rather not go back to the days when someone would get called out for doing crap dps even when their gear obviously prevents them from doing more. I have always healed so I was rarely part of it but watching it was enough to develop a strong distaste for in-game parsers.

I don't even want to think about how 24 mans would be if everyone had a parser. There's enough QQ in there as it is.

Parsers are very useful tools but the sad truth is they're often used as a platform for players to feel justified in being awful to others. They're too easily abused.

If gear was truly the distinction as you say, why is it that my i297 PLD in full time tank stance can out DPS i330+ tanks. Why is it that my brother's ilvl 305 SAM did more damage than an entire party of roughly i320-325 players, by OVER double the second highest person in the group.

Gear matters for sure, but let's not be naive here and pretend that the average player is either mindbogglingly ignorant of MMO fundamentals, or lazy. Neither are excuses in a cooperative team game.

+ Option three represents the highest amount of effort in developing and implementing an in-game parser, but once that's complete the "effort input" remains the same as option two, in that SE simply puts passive effort into policing problem players. Another disadvantage is that those who are defined as "poor performers" might become discouraged and quit the game.

Just my two cents.

You forgot one POSSIBLE benefit. Poor performers will be held accountable and have a desire to improve their play so they're not excluded. You cannot say one way or the other which way it would lean. There simply is no data that exists to support either argument.

I agree with part of what you were saying. Somewhat. I've said my piece about how I feel about the general, casual player base, however, I don't like the trend coming from some of the arguments of parsers being used for performance purposes outside of Ex/Savage/Ultimate. There literally is no reason to parse outside of that content, and even then, it really should be used for farm/parse parties. I imagine with a lot of us, we spend a bit of time on progression - me personally, it was O3S where I really felt progression. Parsing would be nice, but it shouldn't really come into play as being a recommended tool until after you clear. Numbers don't mean nothing if you can't clear a fight.

There is a reason to parse in every type of content. That is to hold people accountable.

That is "wow so and so you did really well" or "man, I am awful, these people are crushing me and I am dead weight, what can I do to fix this?"

and before ANYONE says blah blah someone will say something mean, you ******* report them and move on. The SAME way you would now.

Last bit: Your suggestion does very little to help the difficulty curve that the game struggles with.

However a parser would make these differences obvious to everyone and this would lead to tensions among the playerbase.

Mind citing your data that helped you arrive at that conclusion? Not anecdotal or feelings, actual hard data that supports your point. If you do not have it PLEASE refrain from stating it as a fact. Make sure you specify it is your opinion.

There is already a STAGGERING amount of tension in the playerbase.

It's because people aren't held accountable. That awful DPS doesn't know he is awful because he keeps getting participation trophies so he doesn't understand why people are upset with him. He doesn't have the data so how could they? They must be making it up I'm not that bad he thinks. Yet he keeps getting kicked from parties or talked down too and gets frustrated. He comes on the forums and says I hate parsers and people using them they're elitists.

Never the while accepting the blame HIMSELF for their own inadequacies. That is why I BELIEVE the community is so divisive. You have people making excuses for their performance, people who don't even know (and we've seen countless examples of people saying they tried ACT and were blew away how bad they were in just these few threads alone).

I don't even think its about needing a parser. Its really about being able to kick when using one. If SE just said "we wont ban based on complaints about dps" watch the parser talk dry up instantly. because most people probably wouldn't even use the official parser if they made one

Cross post I made in another thread. I believe I can say this on behalf of "most" Pro parser people.

We want accountability. That's what so many anti-parser people like you misunderstand. We don't want to roast you over your performance. We want you to see it with your own eyes so we don't have too. We'd love to help you get better or clear content because there's no more hidden expectations/blame. The fact that it is all hidden right now is why there is such a strong divide in the community. It's why there is so much resentment between skilled and ignorant players. IMO of course.

It's the same reason why I find learning parties to be some of the best experiences in the communities. That's because there's no hidden expectations. Everyone is there for the same reason. Whereas clear/farm parties you see hidden agendas, people wanting carries, performance discrepancies, etc.

If you have to use a third party program to get accurate feedback on how you are doing, let alone play the job "correctly" enough to beat raiding content, the game has failed in its design. The whole DPS check thing is crappy game design too, there just to put an artificial, obscured time limit to prevent instances from being overbooked and to punish zombying. As for doing less than a tank, I could tell with no parser, because generally if you try and do less, you are dead incredibly often. You don't do that much less if you try and understand the mechanics. For savage I only started doing it in SB out of sheer boredom, and had O1s and Susano ex clears as healer. I don't bother farming it, because healing neither is like pulling teeth compared to dps and tanking.

DPS checks are a necessary and healthy mechanic. It's up to their implementation to determine if they're well designed or not.

That said, I do agree with you. This game has an AWFUL feedback design. You're given very little feedback about your performance and you're not taught the basics, let alone the intermediate aspects of your job or the game. That is one key area FF14 has failed and very likely contributes to the playerbase skill issue.

Do you really think that the devs would leave the rotations and gameplay just as it is right now if they introduced a parser? Really? I mean, really?

I want you all to see the whole picture here guys. I have seen in a dungeon two dps with the same job: one was over 8k and the other was roughly at 1k. Both of them in about the same gear. Now, do you really really think that the devs would leave the rotations and gameplay just as it is right now if they introduce a parser?

I know I would not. For sure. That would make the game lose so many subscriptions that I might as well close the business and go home. Please, try to see the full picture. Otherwise it is only wishful thinking.

What data do you have that supports your belief that because of a parser they'd need to change the skill floor? How do you know it would cause a mass exodus of subscriptions?

Again please cite reliable data for analysis, otherwise PLEASE stop stating your opinion as if it was a fact.

First question: I find it extremely easy on PLD, DRK, WAR and SAM. On the other jobs I can't tell since I don't have them at a level high enough to know. Second question (sort of xD): that guy/girl was not afk. Simply clueless, probably a case of somebody who has never played an mmo and nobody has ever tried to help them. Do you want to know what I did? This:

8k + 1k + 2k + 2k = 13k total -> I can pull wall to wall. And wall to wall I pulled, with some silly jokes along the way as I usually do. It was nice, smooth, fast and fun. No drama whatsoever.

Of course it's easy, it's one freaking button for half of those jobs. That's not even extremely easy, that's quite literally mindless.

And of course it was a smooth and fast run, you had 2 people operating at 95%+ percentile as far as dungeons go in content tuned for the 4th percentile. 8k and 2k (healer) is on the extremely high end of DPS (WHM can go higher, not sure what job healer was in your case).

FWIW, I can solo almost every single dungeon boss in SB. I do not need another damage dealer or a healer. That's how trivial these are.

[Nedkel]

And about the parser thing, I think none of you have really stopped to think in how many ways it can backfire, and my guess is that many of you would never be able to understand to what point it could unless you had a time machine which you could use to witness in first person how it backfired in other games.

It is not only the community issues. Right now the rotation of most jobs, if not all of them, are player based. What I mean is that there are several things you have to consider: you have to manage and refresh dots, align your abilities with self buffs and party buffs that you need to apply and refresh properly and with the proper timing. One of the effects of these rotations is that they are very fun, at least for me, but another effect is that the gap between a player who can do it properly and the one who can't is huge, and that is fine in my book.

However a parser would make these differences obvious to everyone and this would lead to tensions among the playerbase. The problem is that the devs don't want tensions among the playerbase, so they would fix it. How? Easy: dumbing down the rotations. Dots? They get applied automagically when you get a crit. Self buffs? They become a passive trait, so nobody has to apply them and refresh them. The combo thing? Reduce it's potency and make it proc based, so in the end, all the player has to do is smash one or two buttons all day long and smash a third one when it is highlighted. Tank/dps stances? Remove them, tanks are always tanks. Enmity? Increase the tank multipliers for enmity generation to ridiculous numbers to the point that enmity is pretty much automatic. Now the rotation and gameplay is not a player based one, but a rng based one. Sure there will still be a little difference between those who can do it perfectly and those who can't, but it will be minimal, and so the damage output will mostly be based on the gear.

Parser on the other end will result in complete balance reconstruction, due to the playerbase paying attention only on DPS (like in wow) and not the other stuff around the design of specific class.
It will hurt the game design on a much higher level than the simplification of the certain classes.
Why? Because without parser, its up to the game developer how he will design the class, he will make sure to not make it overcomplicated, but may do something cool that doesnt fit into the "performance need", developer could give it a lot of aoe or single target damage, several boosts for the party members, aoe CC tools and etc stuff which on the dps meter will not be counted into the score.
When the playerbase is weaponized with numbers, the things happen to changeover drastically, from the moment or two people will categorize the classes for not the fun these are giving (redmage is awesome) or how they support the party, or how long they will be alive or how much CC or skillshoot do they have, but how much damage do they deal. That will lead straight forward to balance issues, people will stop playing a class with lower possible dps (why they should? because they will not want to be called) for the sake of the other with the highest, giving game developer false and bad feedback on how they should balance "issues" made of air. SE will need to buff certain lower dps classes in order to cater the numberophiles needs, ending up with some classes you will not be able to balance out due to the utilities they bring. At this point if you have a class that does no damage but has a lot of utility and fun to play mechanics, buffing its damage will result in making this specific class overpowered, you cant nerf or buff it either because it will drop the class from each end to another, what you will do?

You will just flat out the gameplay of specific class, taking away fun mechanics, utility, CC or buffs so it will no longer be overpowered, since it has dps on pair with other classes, and you end up with balance purely gray and classes not different to each other. Thats what actually happen in League of legends few years ago, they were just giving damage to each champion and then they were forced to delete some of their mechanics away, because it turns out a mage (which got dmg buffed) with teleporting skill every few second is far stronger than a stationary mage that deals like 10% damage more, what they did? They increased the teleportation cooldown several times, and the character was no longer fun as it was before, killed it entirely.
Valuing dps is not hard task to do, but how do you value the part of the character designs that doesnt bring damage but instead is helping entire team or keeping you alive? Thats the biggest problem which comes with balance, and i bet SE would not want their playerbase to cry over certain classes, because they dont do as much dps as the others and asks for buffs. That will be annoying.
Basing balance around numbers will kill class diversity and fun, its not actually good at all.