/Accuse @ the devs: have you set us up to fail...?

[KaivaC]

All that would do is just make endgame even more barren than it is now. Savage isn't fun for the playerbase, when will people get this through their heads? trying to funnel people into it by making the game harder is helping no one; it just means instead of not doing endgame, people wont bother to reach it. Ugh, farming ex trials is tedious and boring, you want to make expert a similar pain?

Wrong...Savage isn't fun for you.

Honestly, the comments you are replying to are not suggesting starting taking things up to Savage mode immediately. No, it shouldn't be that way. But after story content, Hard mode dungeons should actually feel like hard mode dungeons. At this time, the Aurum Vale, Pharos Sirius, and Stone Vigil in their current iterations have more challenge to them than say, Shisui of the Violent Tides (don't get me wrong, i love this dungeon). Yes, level sync plays a role in them, but they're still challenging because you can't faceroll them easily with PUGs. But the content does need to start getting harder, to encourage and prepare players to go into Savage fights.

Hard mode dungeons are optional - so gradually make them harder. It isn't like players don't have the tools to survive. But at some point, the casual player base needs to start stepping up their game. As much as Yoshi P and the devs try to close the skill gap, it won't happen as long as players continue to get by with faceroll content. You could give players the same hotbars that PVP has, and you'll still find that one BLM who only uses Thunder, or that RDM who somehow finds a way to only hardcast Verthunder.

[Gleipni]

Wrong...Savage isn't fun for you.Hard mode dungeons are optional - so gradually make them harder. It isn't like players don't have the tools to survive. But at some point, the casual player base needs to start stepping up their game. As much as Yoshi P and the devs try to close the skill gap, it won't happen as long as players continue to get by with faceroll content. You could give players the same hotbars that PVP has, and you'll still find that one BLM who only uses Thunder, or that RDM who somehow finds a way to only hardcast Verthunder.

As he said,at some point,dev can try to close the gap,but if casual( and by casual,i mean people who and do an effort and complain they are kicked out of hard content) people dont make an effort,its pointless and we will end up with a tasteless game

[RiyahArp]

Wrong...Savage isn't fun for you.

Savage at best has under 10% completion, and at worst 1% on most NA servers if you count the whole history of it. people don't even bother recruiting fresh 70s to try it, like in other games; in FFXI as soon as you hit 70 people often invited you to do Sky. You either try to do it with random strangers, or you advertise in PF hoping some static will pick you up and its not too late in the raid cycle to try. If you look in your data center's PF, you can often find one or no learning parties for each turn. The amount of salt over it is epic. You can tell me its fun all you want, but if you take a hard look in game, its obviously not.

Trying to make the rest of the game like it in baby steps is just going to make it more of a pain.

[KaivaC]

snip

If you are going to post numbers, link a source. All you are doing right now is saying numbers without evidence. I can easily do that. 75% of all players who have entered Shinryu Ex have cleared at least once. Is it true? Probably not. Won't matter without evidence to prove it. I didn't mention anything about me saying it is fun...in fact, I pointedly said that you in particular don't find it fun. I didn't realize that you spoke for the majority of the player base. I never made any mention on my level of enjoyment for those fights.

PS: For the record, I do find the fights fun...just to clear that up.

Do tell how the game that progressively gets tougher in completely optional Hard Mode dungeons is going to make it more of a pain. I'd love to hear the details of how fun and utterly asinine it would be to actually get players to start playing at level 70 content (lvl 80 in a couple years, likely). You know, just as how you would progress in normal FF games...or even in other MMOs.

[RiyahArp]

You can find clear numbers via lucky bancho's census, can search for that and it will lead you to reddit posts about it, since its a JP blog. They are snapshots of clears at specific times, based on how many people have the minion on lodestone. You can generally tell by participation who finds it fun. As for optional, ugh...the hall of the novice is optional, and that teaches you the basics of your job. I doubt people here want it optional, they want it mandatory.

[KaivaC]

snip

Right...based on the minions...do you know how bloody hard it is just to get the doggy from Susano Ex? Lucky Bancho does boast impressive numbers...but that is in no way representative of the final tally. You can't just use quote this census as the one piece of evidence, which pulls clear rates based on how many people have a minion. The omega normal raids themselves only have 1 (one) mount, that that comes from O4. If I recall correctly, it's the same with O4S. And you are not guaranteed those mounts, you usually have to run those fights multiple times just to finally outroll other players. So that assessment that 10% of the player base have cleared it is completely wrong. I myself have not cleared O4S...doesn't mean I don't raid in Savage, I just haven't cleared that one fight which is O4S.

As for optional...I guess asking players in dungeons with the title 'Hard Mode' is asking too much, eh? Why challenge something even remotely difficult, like just a step-up from faceroll content, when players should be able to get by through hard mode dungeons as they do story mode dungeons, amirite?

Sorry...a little passive aggressive this morning. But hey, question for you. Were you amongst the crowd that thought Shinryu on Normal was too much for a story boss? I really should've just asked that question a couple posts ago.

[RiyahArp]

Sorry...a little passive aggressive this morning. But hey, question for you. Were you amongst the crowd that thought Shinryu on Normal was too much for a story boss? I really should've just asked that question a couple posts ago.

its ok, this is just forum posting. I feel he was a big step up from nidhogg hard, and honestly, he is; just compare the add phases for example. When I beat him at i290, he was comparable to Hashmal imo, and I went back and spammed that stupid trial as healer so I could carry others through it. My main worry is that he sets a pretty high benchmark for trial difficulty this early in the expansion, and that he is actually an example of what you all want; normal content to be harder. Most people were too busy rah rahing that to realize how many ppl were abandoning it at the intended ilvl.

[KaivaC]

snip

Eh..nah, it might be that I'm starting to get a little too excited and loose with the multiple threads I've been responding to lately haha. Not quite the level-headed person I was called a week ago xD

Plus, I'm pretty positive that I'm going to hit my daily soon enough.

I don't mind Shinryu being the benchmark for how difficult a story mode should be. I mean, it's freakin' Shinryu. Yes, he should be a challenge. However, I strongly do believe that hard mode dungeons should start gradually going up in difficulty. Those three dungeons I mentioned a little bit ago were, in my opinion, a pretty good start, even when nerfed. No hard mode dungeon should approach the level of savage difficulty...but I don't think it's too hard to ask for players to slowly step up their game as they go through the hard modes. And I don't mean by harder hitting adds, either. Some mechanics that are exclusive to bosses should be brought down to mob levels, so long as the mobs don't go up to crazy high levels where players can wall to wall pull.