/Accuse @ the devs: have you set us up to fail...?

[RichardButte]

The idea of your thread has been made before you made this.

If you can find a thread proposing the hypothetical situation where tanks and healers have all pressure removed from their performance in dungeons, then I'll bump that instead.

I'm obviously not suggesting that happen, but I'm using it to illustrate the point that it's the pressure to perform in these scenarios that makes them better at their classes.

Without that pressure (or even a metric to gauge their effectiveness when in a party with other players), DPS don't improve because they have nothing to go off of.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Sadly, but if the game is challenging and complicated, it will simply just not be succesful in the finance perspective.

There's a staggering difference between challenging and complicated and mindnumbingly easy and trivial.

FF14 being the latter is not good design. Nor would your first statement, but you're implying there's no in-between and that's just silly and would make IMO for a much better designed leveling structure and would also likely help the end-game not be such a culture shock to new players.

[Zojha]

If you can find a thread proposing the hypothetical situation where tanks and healers have all pressure removed from their performance in dungeons, then I'll bump that instead.

You could also bump up a random:"Nerf X DPS check!" thread.

The "pressure" on tank and healer performance is on their enmity/healing, which is... pretty trivial. Spamming flash and occasionally adding an aggro combo is all you need to "succeed" as tank, that's all the "teaching" of the content amounts to. There's no need for provoke or even CDs until very late down the pipe, as there's little that can one-shot you without CDs at lower levels. WHMs can go all the way to 70 with only 4 skills on their bar - Stone for soloing, Cure, Cure II, Medica, slow pulls and that's all you ever need 'til endgame.

Now go and hold DPS accountable to that performance standard. I'm pretty sure most already exceed it and they fail regardless because the game demands considerably more of DPS than of tanks and healers. And thus, you can also go and ask for the DPS checks of this game to be nerfed so that DPS can beat them while playing at the performance standards of tanks/healers if fairness is your only concern. Which it likely isn't.

[LineageRazor]

I do think that the easy content, such as dungeons, could stand to have a LITTLE more punch to them when teaching mechanics. For example, the stack-on-me indicator SHOULD be lethal if a DPS or healer eats it solo. Instead, the player just takes a lot of damage. The result is that inexperienced players won't necessary know that the ability was encouraging them to stack, and was instead just a sort of heal check. The mechanic they're trying to teach becomes confused. And, really, what is the penalty if folks don't stack? At worst, the healer is the one targeted, they die, and the fight needs to be redone; players recognize that the mechanic was not handled correctly (even if they still aren't sure how it should work) and work to improve on the next attempt.

SE seems to be bending over backwards to make wipes nigh-impossible in learning content when, honestly, a good solid wipe is often the best way to learn.

[Cadmar]

Let's not pretend that tanking and healing is really all that hard or pressure filled either. A healer can pretty much get away with pressing one button in most content if they want to and do just fine.

[Ametrine]

I mean, we've all concluded that mentioning healer/tank DPS outputs as the same as poking a hornet's nest, because it's supplementary to our main role.
Yet, SE has stated repeatedly that content is built with impression that the DPS by the damage dealing focussed jobs -alone- should ALWAYS be plenty to clear content.
So, why is it that DPS players so often aren't ready for that responsibility? That's what we're asking to have resolved.

[odintius]

So, why is it that DPS players so often aren't ready for that responsibility? That's what we're asking to have resolved.

It all started with coil the dps was always their but the dev's didn't account for the tanks and healers to output that much dps which helped push boss phases/ dps checks. So know they account for that and now people expect healers and tanks to dps in Savage ect and like everything it eventually lead people to expect dps outside of the harder content to casual content, because why not it in your tool kit for the job. /Shrugs

[Ametrine]

Honestly, yeah.
Half my deal, too, is that being able to casually weave in some damaging skills between keeping everyone up and alive is just more fun to do!

It's just a bit... odd that the meta is that parties failing to meet DPS checks should rely on their tanks and healers to fill the gaps as much as the actual DPS players. But, since it WORKS, no one can find a solution to why we are like this. Even SE is baffled.

Shoot, maybe this is part of why the devs are so reluctant to keep adding STR to tank gear. But if healing DPS discussion is a hornet's nest, then tank DPS discussion is a wasp's nest. Phew...

[Vstarstruck]

You could also bump up a random:"Nerf X DPS check!" thread.

The "pressure" on tank and healer performance is on their enmity/healing, which is... pretty trivial. Spamming flash and occasionally adding an aggro combo is all you need to "succeed" as tank, that's all the "teaching" of the content amounts to. There's no need for provoke or even CDs until very late down the pipe, as there's little that can one-shot you without CDs at lower levels. WHMs can go all the way to 70 with only 4 skills on their bar - Stone for soloing, Cure, Cure II, Medica, slow pulls and that's all you ever need 'til endgame.

Now go and hold DPS accountable to that performance standard. I'm pretty sure most already exceed it and they fail regardless because the game demands considerably more of DPS than of tanks and healers. And thus, you can also go and ask for the DPS checks of this game to be nerfed so that DPS can beat them while playing at the performance standards of tanks/healers if fairness is your only concern. Which it likely isn't.

Yep , im done, it was more of a bait and switch thread on matters already discussed. Can even be viewed as being related to his own thread of http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...REAM-come-true...

as some pointed out already. The op chooses to debate people only on defending if the thread was made legitimacy or not, rather then points made on the supposed issue. This is how we define a troll. I tried, i was ignored til I question the legitimacy of it, and instead of commenting what i said in full, proceeded just to comment on that specific part.

[Toffa]

at the very least I'd like it if they put in hots-esque KOOL STATZ at the end of a dungeon/in the next loading screen that you can see.
It's hard to hold someone to a standard that they don't know exists/doesn't exist.
It's like in FPS games you should at least be better than the bots before hopping online.