/Accuse @ the devs: have you set us up to fail...?

[Erik501]

If you think that opening a new post about the same topic every day, as much as you try to camouflage it as something different each day, will get you anywhere, then you should know that it probably will, however there is a chance that it might lead to a place which you don't expect. There are some general forum rules posted in the welcome sticky post. One of them says:

"Please use the search function placed at the top of the forum to see if your questions have already been answered. If there happens to be a thread with similar topics, please divert your questions to that particular thread."

[Gleipni]

i remember in ARR,the community was not that bad for end content,probably because the trial were maybe a bit harder back then,and so you would get ready for bahamut coil,but now,they don't even try to add gameplay in dungeon,tank pull everything,healer heal through it,and DD aoe.so much gameplay wow

[Bourne_Endeavor]

People know how to play their job properly.

Hahahahahaha

No they don't. The sheer amount of people who have no idea what their rotation is can be staggering. Granted, it isn't entirely their fault when this game does absolutely nothing to teach.

The issue is playing it in Savage, which is the least fun content this game has made. To make leveling train for that, you'd make the game unfun; you'd have to bulk up the boss length and difficulty, because trash teaches you nothing about fifteen minute boss fights with one shots and enrage. The fact you have to almost always use a video walkthrough of the encounter after the first few days shows its not the job, its the mechanics.

Explain how WoW and other games have managed. It's called a scaling difficulty. You make content harder gradually, thus encouraging people to use more of their abilities. Trash can help people become aware of their surroundings, manage their CDs and heals better and know when to focus on particular targets. Higher floors of PotD exemplify this. And wouldn't you know, Yoshida himself acknowledged higher floors are very popular. When I can literally ignore every single boss mechanic in Kugane Castle, that reinforces bad habits. Such is why you'll often find someone who jump potion'd far more willing to accept advice than someone who's played the game for a year, albeit poorly. The latter had been doing things a certain why but only at say, Shinryu EX did they all stop working. Therefore, it has to be the game's fault not his. A lot of people think this way.

I think people have this generic idea of "make it harder," but they don't really think what that means. I think the first time the tank pulls and everyone wipes because you have a single mob like the slimes in potd with a short enrage timer would wake them up. Or that Susano is replaced w susano ex, and people suddenly are asked to be a lot more precise. A lot of people here tend to not get hard is hard...it means wipes and people struggling a lot with it.

And I think you need to stop assuming what other people think. Per your own example, nothing like PotD priority mobs exist in dungeons. It's among the reason people find them so repetitive. Put stuff like you see from floor 120 up and dungeon may finally have some life breathed into them. Every single one has been reduced to pulling until the game forces you to stop and AoEing things down. Likewise, they aren't. Susano EX requires very little awareness beyond the basic "don't stand here" mechanics. There's a reason Shinryu parties are a mess. He actually demands you pay attention, especially in phase one. People went from a general faceroll in Susano and Lakshmi to Shinryu with comparable expectations and got slaughtered.

Because you find something hard doesn't make it hard. It simply means you may lack experience.

[Darrcyphfeid]

i remember in ARR,the community was not that bad for end content,probably because the trial were maybe a bit harder back then,and so you would get ready for bahamut coil,but now,they don't even try to add gameplay in dungeon,tank pull everything,healer heal through it,and DD aoe.so much gameplay wow

Your feelings about ARR are in large part due to ARR actually having endgame progression that spanned multiple tiers/the entire expansion, coupled with lv50 rotations being fairly straightforward. Like you couldn't enter BCoB at all unless you could clear the 3 HM Primals, couldn't enter SCoB without killing Twintania, couldn't fight Ifrit EX if you couldn't handle Garuda and Titan, and couldn't attempt Ramuh until you proved you could handle the ones that came before him.

Contrast that with the Warring Triad in HW, where you had to kill the HM versions in order but would otherwise have access to all 7 EX Primals without setting foot into any of them. Or Savage Midas only being locked behind normal mode Gordias and Midas, instead of Savage Gordias (which is probably for the best given how hard that was, but still).

I still think the required MSQ stuff being nerfed plays a bigger role in the lack of personal responsibility/skill overall, but the endgame losing cohesive progression hurts too.

[Avatre]

I'm a pretty solid DRG, but I wasn't really paying too much attention and missed the cue to Elusive Jump. So I died. No biggie, restart, get to that point again, Elusive Jump, go back to not really paying attention while doing my rotation. See the message to stand next to an NPC to get some heals, didn't bother confirming the name and stood next to the friendly combat NPC that has a name plate... and I die. Oh. It's the little unmarked NPC hanging out in the back? Okay. Start round 3... oh I have Echo now? That's insulting funny.

Probably like you I was rocking a mixture of i270 Augmented Shire and the couple drops I got from dungeons along the way. Some people towards the end of this expansion are going to roll in there with ~i360 gear, or next expansion with vendorable i385 gear, and curbstomp this thing without seeing any of those details. How does that help them improve or gauge their own progression, Square?

Yeah...I think I failed it 4 times before I finally looked up online why I was failing it...I honestly NEVER used Elusive Jump before that fight, since I would always just run out of the telegraphs. Since then, I've used it more often.

[Riko_Futatabi]

There's also an issue I have with the difference between Normal and Extreme version of Trials/Raids etc.

In Normal there are mechanics that are just missing completely or work differently and at no point prepare you for the Extreme version of the fight. This to me is bad design.

I believe that more people would be comfortable with Extreme content if they were able to run the Normal version and see all the mechanics the fight has to offer. The Normal versions of fights should have all the same mechanics as the Extreme version, of course just for normal the damage dealt from certain things isn't as severe. In my opinion, that's the only difference between Extreme and Normal that they should have...that in Normal your damage taken is just reduced.

[Vstarstruck]

They added dummies to gauge dps already. Are they like being in a real battle, no... but they will give you an idea if you are doing your dpsrotations correctly. Beyond that, learn to dodge while maximizing your up-time.
This isn't rocket science.

That is not how things work, or are you just that out of touch with how people act and feel? If you are meeting a new player to the game or maybe new to MMO's in general, it is very likely they will not see the importance of keeping up time while dodging. Most will drop what they are doing completely to focus on not getting hit, some people do not even know the importance of using an ability again once the cooldown is over. You are like... speaking to people.. um.. I believe they call it "preaching to the choir" Most people on the forums know what to do, you are not commenting your comments with the appropriate audience in mind.

They do not give new players an idea how to do rotations, and there is nothing in the game that really shows people how to AoE. Your post is not adding anything to the discussion.

People know how to play their job properly. The issue is playing it in Savage, which is the least fun content this game has made. To make leveling train for that, you'd make the game unfun; you'd have to bulk up the boss length and difficulty, because trash teaches you nothing about fifteen minute boss fights with one shots and enrage. The fact you have to almost always use a video walkthrough of the encounter after the first few days shows its not the job, its the mechanics.

No, the issue is the game does not teach people rotations, esp 60+, people assume they are doing good enough when they are way off base. Most people you meet in the DF and hell sometimes even in PF for extreme and salvage do not even know how to play their job properly. The skill gap is big even when leveling up classes because the game lacks tutorials. They know so little, people find it ok to eneter expert with a 285 weapon and not having their level 70 ability, while spamming fire I and fire III in groups of 8.

I find it rather telling how you equate actually knowing how to play your job properly with being less fun. Making dungeons not a complete joke doesn't somehow make them impossible, unless you have no idea what you're doing. In which case, how about some personal accountability? The Vault, Aurum Vale, Weeping City and Final Steps of Faith are all examples of reasonable difficulty, but I suppose anything beyond Xelphatol, where you don't even need a tank stance since nothing remotely scratches you, is just too much. The whole reason higher end content has a low percentage is due to the lack of a difficulty curve. It goes from braindead easy to moderately hard to decimating you. Such a sudden spike makes people quit far quicker than if dungeons actually required some healing outside mass pulls.

yup

I think people have this generic idea of "make it harder," but they don't really think what that means. I think the first time the tank pulls and everyone wipes because you have a single mob like the slimes in potd with a short enrage timer would wake them up. Or that Susano is replaced w susano ex, and people suddenly are asked to be a lot more precise. A lot of people here tend to not get hard is hard...it means wipes and people struggling a lot with it.

You totally missed what Bourne_Endeavor said.

You said "Making the game harder leads to people quitting because they can't do it"
Bourne_Endeavor:
"People are more likely to quit due to a difficulty spike then slowly raising the bar as you level"

There is too much of a difficultly spike 1-69 and 70. 1-69 can be braindead easy, and it is easy to carry a DPS, so the dps that is lacking will not see it. Come 70 they are confused why they are being kicked out of expert for not having a clue how to play and prepare for it. Maybe it is you not understanding what people mean when they say the game needs to be harder.

[RichardButte]

If you think that opening a new post about the same topic every day, as much as you try to camouflage it as something different each day"

This IS something different, as I realized the parser debate is in actuality only a symptom of a bigger problem, and that is the game's lack of teaching DPS players the skills it expects them to have later.

DPS checks are in this game, and you don't even need to get to savage raids to find them. If the game expects players to do a set amount of damage within a certain time period, it should be teaching them how to do that BEFORE the moment arrives when they need to do so.

It's bad game design, plain and simple.

As many have suggested in this thread, the game is FILLED with opportunities to teach players more about their specific class and how to maximize its potential (or at least play well with it) but that never actually happens.

Healers and tanks find this teaching because they either keep people alive in lower level dungeons or they don't, but it forces them to learn how to play those classes.

DPS need more hands on teaching, and this seems like the kind of thing SE would solve with a special NPC that teaches players their ideal rotations or something along those lines.

[Gleipni]

I think,the problem about DPS check reside into the fact when they were not enough DpS,people would blame tank and healer to have no DPS,unstead of asking DD to push their limit,
3500k dps into current savage is quite low,if your tank and healer don't help with dps its dead,so DD should just get better and push toward 4k

[Vstarstruck]

This IS something different, as I realized the parser debate is in actuality only a symptom of a bigger problem, and that is the game's lack of teaching DPS players the skills it expects them to have later.
DPS checks are in this game, and you don't even need to get to savage raids to find them. If the game expects players to do a set amount of damage within a certain time period, it should be teaching them how to do that BEFORE the moment arrives when they need to do so.

It's bad game design, plain and simple.

As many have suggested in this thread, the game is FILLED with opportunities to teach players more about their specific class and how to maximize its potential (or at least play well with it) but that never actually happens.

Healers and tanks find this teaching because they either keep people alive in lower level dungeons or they don't, but it forces them to learn how to play those classes.

DPS need more hands on teaching, and this seems like the kind of thing SE would solve with a special NPC that teaches players their ideal rotations or something along those lines.

That person you quoted still has a point though. There is a sticky asking you to search for topics:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...able-to-use-DF.

The idea of your thread has been made before you made this.