/Accuse @ the devs: have you set us up to fail...?

[Lelila38]

its ok, this is just forum posting. I feel he was a big step up from nidhogg hard, and honestly, he is; just compare the add phases for example. When I beat him at i290, he was comparable to Hashmal imo, and I went back and spammed that stupid trial as healer so I could carry others through it. My main worry is that he sets a pretty high benchmark for trial difficulty this early in the expansion, and that he is actually an example of what you all want; normal content to be harder. Most people were too busy rah rahing that to realize how many ppl were abandoning it at the intended ilvl.

And why did he feel harsh at that level and made people abandon duty?
Because there was no step up to that difficulty. People had been able to faceroll everything up to this point and suddenly they're thrown into a fight with adequate challenge for their level.

If the dungeons leading up to him had become progressively more challenging, thus helping people get used to what's required of them, I do believe the whining for nerfs would have been far less. And you wouldn't have had to "carry" your friends, as they would have been able to carry their own weight.

[RiyahArp]

And why did he feel harsh at that level and made people abandon duty?
Because there was no step up to that difficulty..

You can't step up to it and make dungeons fun. By the time we hit 70, bosses would be oneshotting everyone, take ten minutes each, all be on platforms with KB for instakills, and probably have some form of enrage. Shin was an ex trial scaled down more than an easy boss scaled up. Shin has more unique mechanics than O1S ffs.

Some mechanics that are exclusive to bosses should be brought down to mob levels, so long as the mobs don't go up to crazy high levels where players can wall to wall pull.

Go do POTD floor 130+ and come back and tell me how much fun that is. cause those mobs do that, and you only pull one of them. Now imagine a dungeon full of them where you have to pull 3 at a time.

And yeah, Shinryu Normal was a well tuned fight. All you needed was a basic knowledge of your job.

Oh, bull. They had to nerf it slightly because so many people got murdered during the add phase by being a hair away from the corner. Many of the mechanics were faster and hit harder than most fights to date, and some even changed; the center circle aoe could be followed by a stack marker or a levinbolt, which is something not many casual content did. People got murdered by misjudging running to the safe corner of the line aoe by a second. If SE had kept their old policy of "you fall off the platform you are out of the whole fight" we'd all be screaming for nerfs. Diabolos Hollow or a12n was nowhere near as bad, and the latter stopped time.

This is why i never trust raiders, everything is easy for them

[KaivaC]

Go do POTD floor 130+ and come back and tell me how much fun that is. cause those mobs do that, and you only pull one of them. Now imagine a dungeon full of them where you have to pull 3 at a time.

Bad luck prevents me from reaching that level

I mean, obviously, the number of enemies if this i introduced have to be lowered. Heck, I would love to do a dungeon run (just one...wouldn't want to give the devs ideas or get a parser thing started for this one dungeon) where it's just 3 enemies. Someone (I think IGN) mentioned something like Doomtrain - I like the thought of having to traverse a dungeon where you are constantly in danger of being killed from lagging behind. Just one though, and completely optional in hard mode.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You can't step up to it and make dungeons fun. By the time we hit 70, bosses would be oneshotting everyone, take ten minutes each, all be on platforms with KB for instakills, and probably have some form of enrage. Shin was an ex trial scaled down more than an easy boss scaled up. Shin has more unique mechanics than O1S ffs.

You have this terrible habit of speaking in absolutes. The Vault didn't have one-shot mechanics nor did it take ten minutes each boss. In fact, you cite PotD just a paragraph below yet seemingly haven't done yourself otherwise you'd know none of the bosses at higher level floors take even close to ten minutes with a standard comp. Come to think of it, O1S enrages before ten minutes. What unique mechanics? Shinryu primarily reuses old ARR Primal mechanics but simply doesn't let you bang your head on your keyboard if you expect to clear.

No matter how much you argue to the contrary, there does exist a middle ground between Savage and braindead. On a separate note, I'm glad you've finally acknowledged, albeit indirectly, O1S is an uncreative mess.

Go do POTD floor 130+ and come back and tell me how much fun that is. cause those mobs do that, and you only pull one of them. Now imagine a dungeon full of them where you have to pull 3 at a time.

I love PotD 130+. Putting priority mobs in dungeons would actually break up the monotony of pulling everything and AoEing it all down. Just last week, I recklessly pulled too much with some friends and we wound up wiping. Did it suck? Sure, but only because we have to do floors 50-100 again, which are just a slog. The fact the game punished me for being careless was more enjoyable than any current Expert dungeon. Furthermore, I feel like a tank in those floors despite pulling smaller packs. A primary reason mass pulls have become the norm nowadays is due to how negligible the damage is otherwise. When you can tank Yojimbo on Bard...

Oh, bull. They had to nerf it slightly because so many people got murdered during the add phase by being a hair away from the corner. Many of the mechanics were faster and hit harder than most fights to date, and some even changed; the center circle aoe could be followed by a stack marker or a levinbolt, which is something not many casual content did. People got murdered by misjudging running to the safe corner of the line aoe by a second. If SE had kept their old policy of "you fall off the platform you are out of the whole fight" we'd all be screaming for nerfs. Diabolos Hollow or a12n was nowhere near as bad, and the latter stopped time.

This is why i never trust raiders, everything is easy for them

Nonsense. In fact, where is your proof because Yoshida even specifically stated they weren't going to nerf Shinryu. Echo was only had several months later, which is standard for MSQ trials. People were "getting murdered" because they had no idea what they were doing. Unlike every piece of content prior, Shinryu forced you to pay attention to mechanics. Compare that to Thordan normal where you could stand in his AoEs because they did next to nothing and that's precisely why we see such a discrepancy between decent players and bad ones. Had the game actually scaled its difficulty better, people wouldn't be wiping to Shinryu the way they were. You cite A12N yet people were dying left and right when that came out too. Dun Scaith saw multiple wipes to Diabolos and Scathach. Either you are forgetting or straight up lying now.

And your bias shows with that last remark.

[Vstarstruck]

You have this terrible habit of speaking in absolutions. The Vault didn't have one-shot mechanics nor did it take ten minutes each. In fact, you cite PotD just a paragraph below yet seemingly haven't done yourself otherwise you'd know none of the bosses at even higher level floors take even close to ten minutes with a standard comp. Come to think of it, O1S enrages before ten minutes. What unique mechanics? Shinryu primarily reuses old ARR Primal mechanics but simply doesn't let you bang your head on your keyboard if you expect to clear.

No matter how much you argue to the contrary, there does exist a middle ground between Savage and braindead. On a separate note, I'm glad you've finally acknowledged, albeit indirectly, O1S is an uncreative mess.



I love PotD 130+. Putting priority mobs in dungeons would actually break up the monotony of pulling everything and AoEing it all down. Just last week, I recklessly pulled too much with some friends and we wound up wiping. Did it suck? Sure, but only because we have to do floors 50-100 again, which are just a slog. The fact the game punished me for being careless was more enjoyable than any current Expert dungeon. Furthermore, I feel like a tank in those floors despite pulling smaller packs. A primary reason mass pulls have become the norm nowadays is due to how negligible the damage is otherwise. When you can tank Yojimbo on Bard...



Nonsense. In fact, where is your proof because Yoshida even specifically stated they weren't going to nerf Shinryu. Echo was only had several months later, which is standard for MSQ trials. People were "getting murdered" because they had no idea what they were doing. Unlike every piece of content prior, Shinryu forced you to pay attention to mechanics. Compare that to Thordan normal where you could stand in his AoEs because they did next to nothing and that's precisely why we see such a discrepancy between decent players and bad ones. Had the game actually scaled its difficulty better, people wouldn't be wiping to Shinryu the way they were. You cite A12N yet people were dying left and right when that came out too. Dun Scaith saw multiple wipes to Diabolos and Scathach. Either you are forgetting or straight up lying now.

And your bias shows with that last remark.

yeah I wonder too about the absolute thing, nice post +1. We need something harder then faceroll braindead as we level up.

We really need better scaling and increase the general difficulty 51 + DF runs. This is why skill gaps exist, this is why people enter 70 content unprepared, this is why people think they can step in the final level 70 run without their last ability, the game lets them to be carried.

So what you're telling me is basically everyone I know on my server is an ultra fortunate player who rarely encounters toxicity in DF?

You heard it here first guys, come to Moogle. It's the good luck server!

Most of the time people chose not to talk, so unless you are regularly commenting on people not meeting low bar requirements, your not going to see much.

[KaivaC]

Shinryu comment

Continuing our discussion from last week, there were some heavy calls to nerf the Royal Menagerie. And to my knowledge, the fight itself still has not been nerfed at all. Players are starting to outgear that fight, so they typically won't get one-shotted by the add drops - which by the way, is survivable, since you're pretty close to the meteor drops on the 3rd time, when you have to go to the edge between corners. It's not that everything is easy for raiders - it's that we actually took the time to pay attention to mechanics, learn them, and actually worked at getting good in our respective jobs. It's not that hard for regular players to do at least that, even back during the initial 4.0 patch.

[MoroMurasaki]

It's not that hard for regular players to do at least that, even back during the initial 4.0 patch.

Exactly this. As a non-raider I've loved Shinryu from the start because of how it felt more like a fight and less like waiting to win against a boss that can't beat you.

That didn't make it bad but it did make it more difficult (well, difficult at all) for players who have stumbled through the last two years of content unopposed and unlearning simply because laziness and ignorance haven't been penalized.

[KaivaC]

Exactly this. As a non-raider I've loved Shinryu from the start because of how it felt more like a fight and less like waiting to win against a boss that can't beat you.

That didn't make it bad but it did make it more difficult (well, difficult at all) for players who have stumbled through the last two years of content unopposed and unlearning simply because laziness and ignorance haven't been penalized.

Agreed. I was completely casual until Shinryu, when I decided I wanted a real challenge. Honestly, my first wake up call was really The Final Steps of Faith. And I fought him in 3.56, when most players were running in 260-270 gear. Still took me a few times because of mechanics, and I was a monk at the time.

[Tridus]

Continuing our discussion from last week, there were some heavy calls to nerf the Royal Menagerie. And to my knowledge, the fight itself still has not been nerfed at all. Players are starting to outgear that fight, so they typically won't get one-shotted by the add drops - which by the way, is survivable, since you're pretty close to the meteor drops on the 3rd time, when you have to go to the edge between corners. It's not that everything is easy for raiders - it's that we actually took the time to pay attention to mechanics, learn them, and actually worked at getting good in our respective jobs. It's not that hard for regular players to do at least that, even back during the initial 4.0 patch.

Keep in mind that while there were calls to nerf it, there wasn't an epidemic of people getting it in roulette and dropping group. People doing MSQ have always been able to complete it, although it may take a few tries.

Steps of Faith was nerfed because a large segment of the community said "F that" and simply refused to do it ever again, thus forming a wall that newbies couldn't get past. Groups also tended to devolve into yelling and bickering over who should be doing what. To the community's credit, Menagerie wasn't nearly as bad. There were more people willing to help people through it when it came up. I don't know if wanting it to not get nerfed into the ground was a factor or if people were just nicer this time around, but it never formed the same kind of MSQ brick wall. Thus, SE didn't need to act.

It's too bad in that Steps of Faith is a neat encounter, but it's one that benefits massively from a group having a leader explaining who should be doing what, and having people willing to do it. When you either don't have anyone taking charge or have people arguing and refusing to do a given role, it simply doesn't work.

Players should not be stepping into The Royal Menagerie at all until they finish their lvl 70 job quest. If not only for that last job skill, it's to at least get their 290 gear. I really feel like the fight should be completely gated until players finish their last quest. Heck, I'd even venture far enough to be an advocate of gating off Ala Mhigo until then, just for lore purposes. A huge chunk of jobs just aren't complete without that lvl 70 job skill, and the skill completes the job in many ways. Dark Knights get a pretty quick, almost overpowered shield, Paladins get Passage of Arms, hell, SMNs are not complete at all until they finish the Lvl 70 quest.

I agree. Hell, I had my WHM 70 quest done before Doma Castle, because I'm slow at completing the story, lol (not that Plenary Indulgence even remotely mattered at the time). That 290 gear is itself something that matters and it's something the game should try to make sure people do.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I don't know if wanting it to not get nerfed into the ground was a factor or if people were just nicer this time around, but it never formed the same kind of MSQ brick wall. Thus, SE didn't need to act.

Two issues with Steps of Faith prior to its nerf were, as far as I've heard:

1. Missing a single Dragon Cannon basically spelled wipe barring absurdly high DPS
2. There was no way to wipe the party until the duty failed, thus each attempt could range well over ten minutes.

The latter was likely a bigger factor in veterans leaving en masse. Why wipe for a half hour (or longer) when you could eat the penalty and hopefully get Garuda, who basically rolled over? Shinryu had neither problem, which made people were willing to just stick it out.