/Accuse @ the devs: have you set us up to fail...?

[KaivaC]

snip

Right...based on the minions...do you know how bloody hard it is just to get the doggy from Susano Ex? Lucky Bancho does boast impressive numbers...but that is in no way representative of the final tally. You can't just use quote this census as the one piece of evidence, which pulls clear rates based on how many people have a minion. The omega normal raids themselves only have 1 (one) mount, that that comes from O4. If I recall correctly, it's the same with O4S. And you are not guaranteed those mounts, you usually have to run those fights multiple times just to finally outroll other players. So that assessment that 10% of the player base have cleared it is completely wrong. I myself have not cleared O4S...doesn't mean I don't raid in Savage, I just haven't cleared that one fight which is O4S.

As for optional...I guess asking players in dungeons with the title 'Hard Mode' is asking too much, eh? Why challenge something even remotely difficult, like just a step-up from faceroll content, when players should be able to get by through hard mode dungeons as they do story mode dungeons, amirite?

Sorry...a little passive aggressive this morning. But hey, question for you. Were you amongst the crowd that thought Shinryu on Normal was too much for a story boss? I really should've just asked that question a couple posts ago.

[RiyahArp]

Sorry...a little passive aggressive this morning. But hey, question for you. Were you amongst the crowd that thought Shinryu on Normal was too much for a story boss? I really should've just asked that question a couple posts ago.

its ok, this is just forum posting. I feel he was a big step up from nidhogg hard, and honestly, he is; just compare the add phases for example. When I beat him at i290, he was comparable to Hashmal imo, and I went back and spammed that stupid trial as healer so I could carry others through it. My main worry is that he sets a pretty high benchmark for trial difficulty this early in the expansion, and that he is actually an example of what you all want; normal content to be harder. Most people were too busy rah rahing that to realize how many ppl were abandoning it at the intended ilvl.

[Lelila38]

its ok, this is just forum posting. I feel he was a big step up from nidhogg hard, and honestly, he is; just compare the add phases for example. When I beat him at i290, he was comparable to Hashmal imo, and I went back and spammed that stupid trial as healer so I could carry others through it. My main worry is that he sets a pretty high benchmark for trial difficulty this early in the expansion, and that he is actually an example of what you all want; normal content to be harder. Most people were too busy rah rahing that to realize how many ppl were abandoning it at the intended ilvl.

And why did he feel harsh at that level and made people abandon duty?
Because there was no step up to that difficulty. People had been able to faceroll everything up to this point and suddenly they're thrown into a fight with adequate challenge for their level.

If the dungeons leading up to him had become progressively more challenging, thus helping people get used to what's required of them, I do believe the whining for nerfs would have been far less. And you wouldn't have had to "carry" your friends, as they would have been able to carry their own weight.

[KaivaC]

snip

Eh..nah, it might be that I'm starting to get a little too excited and loose with the multiple threads I've been responding to lately haha. Not quite the level-headed person I was called a week ago xD

Plus, I'm pretty positive that I'm going to hit my daily soon enough.

I don't mind Shinryu being the benchmark for how difficult a story mode should be. I mean, it's freakin' Shinryu. Yes, he should be a challenge. However, I strongly do believe that hard mode dungeons should start gradually going up in difficulty. Those three dungeons I mentioned a little bit ago were, in my opinion, a pretty good start, even when nerfed. No hard mode dungeon should approach the level of savage difficulty...but I don't think it's too hard to ask for players to slowly step up their game as they go through the hard modes. And I don't mean by harder hitting adds, either. Some mechanics that are exclusive to bosses should be brought down to mob levels, so long as the mobs don't go up to crazy high levels where players can wall to wall pull.

[Legion88]

The Minion from Savage and normal mode are the same...
You can just asume on the base of the mount, that drops every kill, but not everyone who has the kill has the mount.

And yeah, Shinryu Normal was a well tuned fight. All you needed was a basic knowledge of your job. If you have done the ARR primals you can feel lucky to know a little how the special attacks work if not you can figure it out from the elemental name or from the effect. Nothing really special about it.
The only ones with real drawbacks were the new players using leveljumps, they couldn't know this all, but they can figure it out easyly.
But mostly you just hear "This sh*t is to hard to facerole and shouldn't gate people from endgame!" but if you didn't do your jobquest and didn't care to learn a just a bit higher tuned fight like this you aren't ready for the "endgame".

[RiyahArp]

And why did he feel harsh at that level and made people abandon duty?
Because there was no step up to that difficulty..

You can't step up to it and make dungeons fun. By the time we hit 70, bosses would be oneshotting everyone, take ten minutes each, all be on platforms with KB for instakills, and probably have some form of enrage. Shin was an ex trial scaled down more than an easy boss scaled up. Shin has more unique mechanics than O1S ffs.

Some mechanics that are exclusive to bosses should be brought down to mob levels, so long as the mobs don't go up to crazy high levels where players can wall to wall pull.

Go do POTD floor 130+ and come back and tell me how much fun that is. cause those mobs do that, and you only pull one of them. Now imagine a dungeon full of them where you have to pull 3 at a time.

And yeah, Shinryu Normal was a well tuned fight. All you needed was a basic knowledge of your job.

Oh, bull. They had to nerf it slightly because so many people got murdered during the add phase by being a hair away from the corner. Many of the mechanics were faster and hit harder than most fights to date, and some even changed; the center circle aoe could be followed by a stack marker or a levinbolt, which is something not many casual content did. People got murdered by misjudging running to the safe corner of the line aoe by a second. If SE had kept their old policy of "you fall off the platform you are out of the whole fight" we'd all be screaming for nerfs. Diabolos Hollow or a12n was nowhere near as bad, and the latter stopped time.

This is why i never trust raiders, everything is easy for them

[KaivaC]

Go do POTD floor 130+ and come back and tell me how much fun that is. cause those mobs do that, and you only pull one of them. Now imagine a dungeon full of them where you have to pull 3 at a time.

Bad luck prevents me from reaching that level

I mean, obviously, the number of enemies if this i introduced have to be lowered. Heck, I would love to do a dungeon run (just one...wouldn't want to give the devs ideas or get a parser thing started for this one dungeon) where it's just 3 enemies. Someone (I think IGN) mentioned something like Doomtrain - I like the thought of having to traverse a dungeon where you are constantly in danger of being killed from lagging behind. Just one though, and completely optional in hard mode.

[Veliena]

The issue I see in this entire thought is, if the game sets everyone up to fail, how do some succeed? From what I gained from the OP they state that the game basically throws you off the deep end at a certain point in the game, and that everyone drowns. But thats not the case. Not everyone drowns.

The main issue in games today is people seem to expect the game to hold their hand through the entire experience, never letting the player figure things out on their own. Look at FFXV, you can go through the entire game pressing only 1 button. Thats not a game.

People who think that just because you work you can't learn/devote any time to a game is just as wrong. People have devoted time and learned new things while working for decades.Games aren't like movies they are supposed to be a form of entertainment that you actively engage with and shape as you go. In a multiplayer game you should devote some time to actually learning how to play at a somewhat decent level.

[Penthea]

Without it, we're wandering out into the DF completely unprepared, setting us up for the most toxic experience this game has to offer, and that's exactly what you're trying to avoid. :\

I really wonder about players who make statements like this. Toxic is the last thing I'd use to describe my experience in DF, and I have been playing for over two years. Most of the time things go smoothly and it's very uneventful. A lot of this post reeks of gross exaggeration.

[NephthysVasudan]

<snip>

*thumbs up*

Couldn't have said it better myself.