[spoiler] empire might vs eorzea might

[silentwindfr]

with stormblood something have become apparent to me, well it was already but it more visible with the battle of ala migho when the alliance was in peril because of a few flying fighter.

Eorzea army have a very very big handicap in terms of military and technologic power.
what the eorzea army have, at least that we know:
- trained solder for the infantry
- cannon, anti dragon canon and probably a few mortar for the artillery
- a few pirate boat for marine

and that all... what do have the empire soo far:
- trained soldier and conscript from the colony for the infatery
- a wider variety of artillery going from classical cannon to magical artillery and even automated defense.
- heavy cavalery with tank and robot that can act freely on the battlefield, they seems to have a wide variety that allows them to adapt them to many terrain.
- a marine after all they don't have only one port city like the alliance. it was said in the story that them warship is a treat for the pirate.
- and finally that the most important point, they have an air army covering, fighter, battleship and transport.

i don't included the use of fireweapon more used in the empire since we know with the game that it can be counter balanced, but that still an advantage.

without forget that the empire have multiple legion of army full geared and ready to strike....

then how the hell we can hope to face the empire war machine with what we have?
i hope with the futur patch that this part of the trouble will be adressed, because soo far, it will be none logical for us to win the war.

i did give an example into another thread, the world war two example of the french resistance that was able to deal damage to the nazi but was unable to really free them country without air, land and marine army help from the allies.
and even this exemple is not good, since the empire hold power from almost the whole planet already only eorzea, doma and hingashi is not under them control...

the story of stormblood is nice, but honestly, who the fuck is the leader of the empire that did let this happend, no general with a bit of war knowledge will have allows this debacle...

we know they have the technology and the equipement for artillery bombardement and even air bombardement, why they haven't crush the alliance when they was standing bellows the wall of ala miggho? or when they have take baelsar wall? a simple bombardement will have crush the enemy position.

because soo far, Eorzea have no freaking air defense... when the empire have clearly a fleet of battleship... where are they?

from a story perspective the 4.0-4.1 was interesting, from war perspective it don't make sense. even the battle of doma with the bird and the fighter was already... ok the bird can have more maniability, but they don't have weapon for pierce the armor of the fighter? the people of orthard are not profient in magic and they don't use a lot of fireweapon, how with bow they did pierce the armor of the fighter? and more important, who is in right mind to not leave a garnison with at least 1-2 battleship and a few more fighter that can clearly overpower the tribes.

like said, in terms of story was fun, but in terms of war... it's not possible it's like the empire had move away them troops and meet them enemy with the bare minum or at least the same number of enemy....when the empire have the number... they have many legion and a number of troops that is scary...

i feel FF14 have a lot to improve in terms of war perspective if we go full with the empire, we need to adress the lack of air defense of the eorzean soon, because when the fleet will come we will be like duck sitting ready to be shoot unable to do anything.

and i doubt the dragon will involve them for fight the empire outside them territory... they didn't even move when the massive battleship have reach azy las....

ps: an important point that did a bit bothered me in the part of doma, where are the military installation for keep the control of the territory? they have the wall, ok, the old capital, ok, one small base that is barely bigger than some base we have in thanalan (that was not under them control) and that all... especially since they did revolt recently, why not we haven't seen more troops stationed here for keep in check potential threat to the empire power?

more important, about our might, we will arrive under defended territory that will have heavy fortification, artillery and such.... how we plan to take it down? night attack and such don't work all the time. i don't see us take the battle to empire territory without a big change in the power balance... we can't continue to fight without heavy cavalery and air army... and i doubt garlond have enough people for make up in comparaison of the empire war machine.

[SaitoHikari]

Honestly? My headcanon is that the XIIth Legion only got completely and utterly defeated by a ragtag band of rebels simply because Zenos told the rest of the Empire not to interfere with his fun. I feel like he basically set up Yotsuyu to fail in defending occupied Doma because he wanted the WoL to return to Gyr Abania.

[KageTokage]

I feel like something major like a civil war is going to have to go down in Garlemald for the Eorzean Alliance and possibly the Domans to even consider mounting an offensive against them.

I don't think even the XIIIth legion would've lost if Zenos hadn't been trying to have his fun.

[YianKutku]

what the eorzea army have, at least that we know:
- trained solder for the infantry
- cannon, anti dragon canon and probably a few mortar for the artillery
- a few pirate boat for marine

Eorzea has an entire navy capable of controlling the seas, via Limsa Lominsa. Their privateers routinely raid Garlean ships, and those aren't even their professional navy of the Crimson Fleet (although they do get called up as levies).

Eorzeans also have the occasional superhuman fighter thanks to the abundant aether in the area.

the story of stormblood is nice, but honestly, who the fuck is the leader of the empire that did let this happend, no general with a bit of war knowledge will have allows this debacle...

The fact that it makes very little sense for Varis to allow the loss of two provinces (and his son) with basically a shrug is why we think there's more going on.

because soo far, Eorzea have no freaking air defense... when the empire have clearly a fleet of battleship... where are they?

Eorzea is fully capable of shooting down Garlean airships, ranging from cannons to repurposed anti-dragon harpoons.

ps: an important point that did a bit bothered me in the part of doma, where are the military installation for keep the control of the territory?

Doma Castle.

This is explained in the story. They used to be at Castrum Fluminis (just outside Doma), but moved into Doma Castle once Doma fell, and now Castrum Fluminis is just a storage facility.

Honestly? My headcanon is that the XIIth Legion only got completely and utterly defeated by a ragtag band of rebels simply because Zenos told the rest of the Empire not to interfere with his fun. I feel like he basically set up Yotsuyu to fail in defending occupied Doma because he wanted the WoL to return to Gyr Abania.

Zenos also self-sabotaged by killing his own generals for boring him, and ignoring all strategic and tactical concerns in search of a more exciting fight. Which is why I can never believe the NPCs when they say he's some sort of genius at strategy.

Thus far we have only really faced one Legion at a time. The VIIth got caught up in the Seventh Calamity and its lead-up, the XIVth went rogue and Gaius relied too heavily on unknown technology (and the XIVth is still around in great numbers), the VIth have no interest in confronting us at the moment save to keep us away from Azys Lla and the Warring Triad, and the XIIth is sabotaged from within by its own Legatus, as mentioned.

It's shown that the Eorzean Alliance could, in theory, easily face any one Legion and smash them to bits. The problem is that having the Alliance work as one team is a very new thing; at Cartenau, they were mainly a mass of uncoordinated rabble, against the highly-trained troops of the VIIth Legion. Even when they managed to take over Castrum Oriens, there were plenty of logistical issues with integration (eg the Twin Adders have fully vegetarian rations, which the Maelstrom think is inhumane).

And a large part of Operation Archon in base ARR is convincing the Eorzean Alliance that they are an alliance, not just a few armies who happen to be in the same place.

Finally, we haven't seen what happens if the Empire decides to send more than one Legion at a time at us. Given the arc of the story so far, I doubt this will happen, since it would involve too many characters to introduce and flesh out at once. (They barely managed to scrape through with the Gyr Abania and Othard divide of 4.0, and I'm sure some people think they failed.)

[Balipu]

Pff Eorzea has a plot device called Warrior of Light. That's our military might. It's why you never see proper wars in video games that aren't an RTS. Even the best general does nothing else but throws the protagonist at the problem. And there is zero ammount of planning or tricks or experimental super weapons that can work against the Warrior of Light.

[silentwindfr]

nope eorzea is not capable to shot down the airship, that why they was able to maintain base in the country of the 4 city states, the only airship the 4 city own are the big wood airship of ishgard and the one owned by garlond and most of them are transport ship, not fully reinforced battleship with canon.

the empire have this:


and even shiva was only able to stop it... by damaging lightly. and it's the flagship, they have tons of other battleship that can simply destroy the army of eorzea without be afrait of anything.

an example of airship that the empire was using for transport troops, and that are fully armed, from the v1:


here a simple escorter:


where they was while the battle of doma or ala miggho?

same why did they haven't bombard the camp of the alliance from ala miggho they are litterally at the door and don't tell me they have no defense on the wall? when they did build a massive cannon able to shoot from a region to another.

the worst part is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRnIJsnbh60

in this video they are present, with the alliance that have no air defense and no air army, how they will have been able to shoot at them? use the thaumaturge? they can't shoot that far. we can say that zena was self sabotaging, but honestly it the easy way out, most of the army of the empire wasn't used, why not send them magitek robot attack? they have more than enough robot around for wipe the whole base...

i'm ok with the story, but i feel they are making light of war perspective and for me it kill the immersion, because i can't believe we do win... the emperor that was here with his flagship did go back and leave zeno die like it was a trash? not sending more troops, when it risk to give idea to the other province to rebel? (especially since they did crush doma rebellion recently, the empire must be warry of rebellion) it seriously not logical to let doma and ala miggho go simply because zeno want his fun, as emperor and even his general they are failing soo badly that it's almost like they want us to win this war and don't fight back.


i feel the story was about us winning against the empire, but from what i have seen we did win against an empire that simply let us take his fortification easily, baelsar wall, they didn't even mount a counter attack, the base in gyr abania, no air defense, no artillery.... litterally leave us take the base. the only moment they have fight back a bit is with the giant cannon... but even this it was killed easily when they had other means to destroy us.

[KageTokage]

I'm hoping that the Empire does mount some kind of counterstrike before 4.X ends.

They really feel like a bunch of chumps (Excluding their elites like Regula and Zenos) despite being the strongest military force in the world, so getting a proper demonstation of that power would be nice, even if takes a plot device to save us from them (Again).

[Scremin]

nope eorzea is not capable to shot down the airship, that why they was able to maintain base in the country of the 4 city states, the only airship the 4 city own are the big wood airship of ishgard and the one owned by garlond and most of them are transport ship, not fully reinforced battleship with canon.

They might be smart about not sending it blindly because the last big flagship they sent, their pride etc etc... was taken down by a bunch of dragons and Midgardsormr. That could happen again, especially after the truce between Ishgard and dragonkin following the fall of Nidhogg.

And also the fact that Ishgard is now back in the alliance, and having survived horde after horde of dragons for I don't even remember how long, shows that they do have proper air defenses, cannons, magick barriers and such, and can share them with the rest of the alliance if an Garlean offensive is on the way.

(especially since they did crush doma rebellion recently, the empire must be warry of rebellion)

There's a big difference in crushing a small, unorganized rebellion, and fighting against a highly organized, secretive, and surgical military strike no one expected... As far as was shown they were at best expecting random rebellions from Doma, not an organized and surgical strike that took down their representative at Doma Castle, quickly followed by a quick joing military effect between all Eorzea Nations to take back Ala Mhigo, WHILE they were still wondering what the hell happened in Doma, and also while they were thinking they already dealt with any possible rebellion from Ala Mhigo after Zenos "crushed" the rebellion in the beginning of SB... so they got to deal with 2 highly organized and completely unexpected military attacks, while keeping at best moderate forces on both places due to expecting, at best, random small rebellions. It was too fast for them to send a proper response, by the time they knew it, Doma and Ala Mhigo fell before them.

they didn't even mount a counter attack

Aside from what I mentioned above, now, after we took it, it won't be so easy and simple for them to just send their full force and take Doma and Ala Mhigo back because :

a) They lost 2 provinces, and now have to worry about other conquered ones rising up against them, so they have to send more forces to those provinces to secure them;

b) With their forces spread like that, they can't focus on fighting 4 Eorzean Nations at the same time + Doma and retake those places without a massive loss of their military strength, wich would in turn weaken them and their said hold on those other provinces, leaving them more vulnerable;

c) You might think Garleans and magiteck are all that but let's face it, magiteck was created to suplement their lack of aether manipulation skills, while both Doma and Eorzea residents not only are full of aether, but have a lot of individuals who excel at manipulating it, i mean:

* A bunch of people, using flying mounts and melee weapons fought toe to toe with Garlean air fighters. (Hien and Oromir units for instance)

* Estinien single handed took down a giant cannon that can shoot across regions... with one blow...

* The WoL is a fucking one man army

* So is Raubahn, even with one arm

* Pretty much all of the job trainers are also supposed to be the master of their craft, meaning probably also one mar armies, on a smaller scale

and even shiva was only able to stop it... by damaging lightly. and it's the flagship, they have tons of other battleship that can simply destroy the army of eorzea without be afrait of anything.

Shiva that time was summoned with one single crystal, even if IT was a crystal of light, it was nowhere near her full potential, hell it might have been weaker than the Shiva we fought in storymode, so the flagship taking her down really isn't such a big deal to be fair.

from what i have seen we did win against an empire that simply let us take his fortification easily, baelsar wall

Again, surprised organized attacks that they simply did not ever expect is not the same thing as letting us take his fortification easily...

i'm ok with the story, but i feel they are making light of war perspective

From my PoV its you who is making light of the war perspective, not taking into account any kind of strategy, neighter proper measuring neighter the alliance military capability nor the Garlean one, saying that the Garleans should just send their magiteck robots and ships against the alliance and crush them without even thinking of what the consequences of those actions would be not only for their military force, but for the other provinces they hold and their powerbase, because its not like it was shown that Garlean ships and magiteck robots like you said can be fought and destroyed with melee weapons, black magicks, etc etc... The Garleans might have military superiority, but its not overwhelming and it would result in a lot of losses for them if they risked total open war, wich might not be in their best interest for now.

[YianKutku]

nope eorzea is not capable to shot down the airship

There are many, many wrecked airships scattered around the Fringes area of Gyr Abania, as well as a few more near Castrum Fluminis in Yanxia (where the Lupin daily hunt targets tend to cluster).

Who shot them down? EDIT: Honest question. I don't know who shot down the fliers in Yanxia. I don't know why the fliers in Gyr Abania continue to burn either.

and even shiva was only able to stop it... by damaging lightly.

Shiva froze its engines in a block of ice, forcing it to land on Azys Lla.

It's still there.

So I doubt that counts as "light damage".

[Belhi]

The Eorzean Alliance clearly can take down Airships as we have seen their ruins around. More over if they couldn't Giaus would have never seen needed the Ultima weapon as he could have just parked a bunch of Airships over the capitols and bombarded them. There is a very big difference between taking out a supply ship and taking out a warship attacking a military force.

Frankly I think the most likely answer is magic. Magic has far further reach than I think a lot of people realise. Once long ago in Eorzea's history a BLM spell was used to hit a comet out in space. If a BLM can manage that, I think a Thaumaturge can hit an Airship. Their Flagships are certainly a very dangerous threat but the only one they have been able to produce since the fall of the Agrius is stuck in Azys Lla with its engines frozen in Aetheric Ice that wont melt.

All that said, the main thing that is protecting the Eorzean Alliance is simply that the Garleans have a great deal of territory to cover. This is our current defence. They can move military assets out of provinces they currently hold that are at risk of rebellion without risking loosing those provinces too. On a pure military strength basis, Eorzea doesn't hold a candle to Garlemald. However Garlemald hasn't brought it's full strength to bear basically because it has to govern and control such a large area and Eorzea hasn't been worth the investment to throw everything at. The last Emperor opted for just blowing it up rather than waste time trying to take the territory.

As for the freeing of Ala Mhigo and Doma, really the reason we were mostly successful was because Zenos was more focused on his 'hunt' than actually winning. He wanted that thrill of battling while there was a sense of danger, of taking on an actual threat. It is why he let the WoL live twice. If Zenos had been focused on winning or even allowed to invade Eorzea the outcome quite likely would have been very different.

Varis on the other hand probably has a bigger scope in mind and the loss of two border provinces is low on his list of serious problems. We know Varis has an understanding of the meta state of Hydaelyn, Zodiark and the 8 remaining shards. His eye is probably on that. Compared to that Doma and Ala Mhigo are small potatos.