In competition with myself: a request for PERSONAL parsers

[Reinha]

A personal parser is useless. The number you're showing there is meaningless without the person being able to compare it or put it into context against anything. Compare it to themselves? That's not going to do much if they've already learned a bad rotation and they're doubling down on it.

I was under the impression that the most useful comparisons are the parses from the same job and in the same instance, uploaded to fflogs for statistics and analysis. That wouldn't change whether the parser is showing your party members or not. If you are the only SMN in a Shinryu ex farm, seeing other people's dps is not going to tell you how well you are doing as a SMN. A 70th percentile RDM does slightly less damage than a 25th percentile SMN in Shinryu ex, so without knowing how other SMNs do you might think beating a RDM is an accomplishment. Whether the official parser was public or private it likely couldn't even be used to upload parses, so it would be better used for self-improvement.

Besides, once an official parser is implemented, what would stop us from comparing our numbers in /fc chat or a "Show your parse" thread? Voluntarily talking about numbers would not be forbidden anymore and it would be about as accurate as comparisons to random party members.

Personal parsing is just objectively useless, parsing is only born from comparison, and self-comparison is the easiest way to lose sight of objective reality. How do you think the average player would react if they told someone, "Wow, I went from 1300 to 2600 dps, I've literally doubled! I've gotten so great at this game!" Only for someone to reply, "Actually, <on the same class with the same gear> I'm doing 4200, so you're not good at this game"? Seeing progress is great, but it's absolutely pointless without context.

You just gave an example of how one would obtain context for their numbers in-game.

[Oscura]

You just gave an example of how one would obtain context for their numbers in-game.

The grand majority of "personal parser," posts wants to live in a world where asking or demanding another's numbers is a ban-worthy offense. There is no guarantee that people will willingly share their numbers at any given moment, and some people will forever keep themselves stuck in their bubble to avoid being criticized or yelled at. Simply put, if people want to obtain context for their numbers, they should just ask for an actual parser.

People keep saying this with absolutely no basis behind it.

I literally posted my basis behind it. A personal parser is useless, middle-of-the-road, half-assed garbage. If you want a parser, ask for a parser. Do not ask for a "personal parser," do not ask for a "damage rating," do not ask for a "damage ranking system post-dungeon/run," ask for an ACTUAL PARSER. There is zero point in asking for any other alternative aside from wanting to avoid offending people who will be offended regardless of whatever alternative you try to bring up.

[Sebazy]

I literally posted my basis behind it. A personal parser is useless, middle-of-the-road, half-assed garbage. If you want a parser, ask for a parser. Do not ask for a "personal parser," do not ask for a "damage rating," do not ask for a "damage ranking system post-dungeon/run," ask for an ACTUAL PARSER.

And you refuse to pay any heed to the multitude of explanations as to why despite being half-assed and middle of the road, it certainly isn't useless. /shrug

Look at it this way.

Little Timmy gets paid $10 an hour, he's struggling to get by on that and feels that he is due a pay rise. He'd quite like $100 an hour but that simply isn't going to happen. He decides to do one of the following:

A) Ask for a pay rise to $100 an hour.

B) Appreciate that that's never going to happen and not ask for anything.

C) Ask for a pay rise to $11 an hour.

Option A is one side of your suggestion, feel free to make your own thread asking as such and we'll see how that goes. I'll even bring the marshmallows.

Option B is the other side of your suggestion, nobody wins and the sorry state of affairs we have stays in place.

Option C is the choice grounded in reality. Is it what Little Timmy really wants? No. However.... It's a request that's much more likely to get a positive result. Even if it isn't a huge result, it's a start and it's progress. Once more people warm up to the idea and realise that this parsing stuff isn't actually all that bad then perhaps we can put option A back on the table again.

[Oscura]

Look at it this way.

Little Timmy gets paid $10 an hour, he's struggling to get by on that and feels that he is due a pay rise. He'd quite like $100 an hour but that simply isn't going to happen. He decides to do one of the following:

A) Ask for a pay rise to $100 an hour.

B) Appreciate that that's never going to happen and not ask for anything.

C) Ask for a pay rise to $11 an hour.

Option A is one side of your suggestion, feel free to make your own thread asking as such and we'll see how that goes. I'll even bring the marshmallows.

Option B is the other side of your suggestion, nobody wins and the sorry state of affairs we have stays in place.

Option C is the choice grounded in reality. Is it what Little Timmy really wants? No. However.... It's a request that's much more likely to get a positive result. Even if it isn't a huge result, it's a start and it's progress. Once more people warm up to the idea and realise that this parsing stuff isn't actually all that bad then perhaps we can put option A back on the table again.

Your analogy is weak. Little Timmy doesn't have a choice because he needs that money to live. We do not need parsers to live. There is also the fact that someone else would probably be desperate enough to do his job if he complained too much about how little he got paid and was fired, but anyway...

It's not that my suggestion is "little bit of column A, little bit of column B." I'm calling a personal parser useless because it is. There is no proof Square Enix is any more accepting of this than a normal parser, therefore, asking for $11 or $100 an hour, it's pointless to choose 11 if in the end, the possibility of "No," as an answer is still the same.

My point is, unless Square Enix goes on the record to say they want a personal parser but need to see enough feedback or push for it, a regular parser has just as much chance to be accepted. The only thing that a personal parser benefits over a normal one is that they could still enforce the rule of don't ask/don't tell for numbers. Personal parsing literally only exists to avoid offending others. That's it. It has no extra benefits compared to an actual parser. That is why it is useless.

[Sebazy]

It's not that my suggestion is "little bit of column A, little bit of column B." I'm calling a personal parser useless because it is. There is no proof Square Enix is any more accepting of this than a normal parser, therefore, asking for $11 or $100 an hour, it's pointless to choose 11 if in the end, the possibility of "No," as an answer is still the same.

Yoshida openly stated that he felt warrior was fine but the community objected en mass and thus WAR promptly got buffed through the ceiling. I don't really care what SE feels about it frankly, if enough of the community gets behind an idea that's not entirely unreasonable to implement, then there's a fair chance it'll actually happen, doubly so if it's not actually much work either (It's a pretty safe assumption that SE will have some form of DPS metric in the QA team's client at the very least).

Let's be realistic here, the community isn't going to rally behind a fully blown in game parser without a first step to introduce the masses to it's benefits in a watered down and easy to swallow form. However, the community does appear to be warming up to this. It's a start. I really don't see how this is so hard to understand?

Comparing it to an actual parser is completely missing the point. This isn't for you or me. This is for the overwhelming majority of people who are either unable or unwilling to run an actual parser. For these people, stepping into EX and Savage content is akin to being given a minimum speed limit on a motorway in a vehicle with no speedo. If you truly feel this is useless then there is literally no point me trying to explain anything else to you.

[Oscura]

Yoshida openly stated that he felt warrior was fine but the community objected en mass and thus WAR promptly got buffed through the ceiling. I don't really care what SE feels about it frankly, if enough of the community gets behind an idea that's not entirely unreasonable to implement, then there's a fair chance it'll actually happen, doubly so if it's not actually much work either (It's a pretty safe assumption that SE will have some form of DPS metric in the QA team's client at the very least).

Then add a parser? A parser isn't unreasonable to implement? If you don't care what SE feels about, why are you trying to make a request based on their feelings? You're contradicting yourself. The community just needs to push harder on their demands for a parser then. We don't need baby steps because we need to placate SE, not unless we care about their feelings anyway.

Let's be realistic here, the community isn't going to rally behind a fully blown in game parser without a first step to introduce the masses to it's benefits in a watered down and easy to swallow form. However, the community does appear to be warming up to this. It's a start. I really don't see how this is so hard to understand?

I am being realistic. The majority of people who oppose parsers are either terrified, nervous, hateful or greatly dislike the idea of someone else seeing their numbers without their permission, or having to share their numbers, or being judged on their numbers. Most of those people will never change. It has nothing to do with skill level, it's the same way a lot of people dislike FFlogs. They just don't like the idea of information about them readily being available and ready to judge, even if they perform well. It's rampant enough that even in the OP, it's stated to just lie about your numbers if you feel the need to, or feel uncomfortable. The only problem is that people would just be kicked for lying, and if the GM questioned the party leader about it, they could simply lie and say the numbers weren't high enough. No rule against elitism.

Also, if you've read most parsing threads lately, there's actually been more replies in support of it than rejecting it. The problem is that unfortunately the forum isn't a big enough sample size.

Comparing it to an actual parser is completely missing the point. This isn't for you or me. This is for the overwhelming majority of people who are either unable or unwilling to run an actual parser. For these people, stepping into EX and Savage content is akin to being given a minimum speed limit on a motorway in a vehicle with no speedo. If you truly feel this is useless then there is literally no point me trying to explain anything else to you.

It's not missing the point, and it has nothing to do with me. I've constantly stated and stand by my opinion that I don't care either way if a parser is officially supported. The majority of people who are unwilling to run parsers won't change their mind because of a personal parser. Most anti-parsing posts are about being judged, criticized or harassed by peers. Their feelings regarding this won't change. All it takes is one incident with personal parsing for people like that to feel validated. Eventually some rude person, somewhere, will go too far and demand numbers or act like a jerk, and it'll paint a bad light on all of us. People constantly cite one incident from Japan as a big reason why parsers aren't allowed today, if you're wondering where I get this assumption from. The person was being harassed for more than their damage, but regardless, since it was part of it, that's good enough for most people to explain or validate why parsers should never be allowed.

[Reinha]

The grand majority of "personal parser," posts wants to live in a world where asking or demanding another's numbers is a ban-worthy offense. There is no guarantee that people will willingly share their numbers at any given moment, and some people will forever keep themselves stuck in their bubble to avoid being criticized or yelled at. Simply put, if people want to obtain context for their numbers, they should just ask for an actual parser.

So your beef with the proposed personal parser is that it fails to force anyone to care about their performance. Sorry to tell you but there is no magic cure for that. If a player cares about how well they are doing relative to other players, they have the means to find out even if pestering others for their dps numbers remained forbidden. They can ask if people think their numbers are good or not, check out fflogs or compare the dps numbers they got in SSS versus the actual battle. Seeing party members' dps is not actually going to reveal anything more about performance than what a player can voluntarily find out by using a personal parser.

[Oscura]

So your beef with the proposed personal parser is that it fails to force anyone to care about their performance. Sorry to tell you but there is no magic cure for that.

That's not my beef with it. I just dislike things that are only done half-way. There is zero conclusive evidence that a personal parser would be more accepted than a normal parser by SE. You might as well go all the way. Square Enix has the final say-so, regardless of community feedback. Even if 99% of the community said they wanted a full blown, normal parser tomorrow, if the shareholders felt they wouldn't lose money and the dev team didn't want it anyway, it wouldn't be added. They've already proven that time and time again, with many things that are constantly requested either to be shoved under the rug or completely ignored.

Seeing party members' dps is not actually going to reveal anything more about performance than what a player can voluntarily find out by using a personal parser.

This is flat out untrue. The more skilled a Ninja is, the more DPS the entire party will be doing. Do not forget that buffs and debuffs are part of rotations, and that usually doing them as optimally as possible lines up with high and/or good DPS. If a bad ninja is in the same exact party as the good one (more specifically, with the same other 7 people in the same piece of content without the good ninja), the party will inevitably do less damage because of it.

This is a game based on teamwork. It is not a solo-player game.

[RichardButte]

If you want a parser, ask for a parser.

I asked for personal parsers because SE seems hellbent on not adding actual parsers.

At this point, I'd take literally anything that would actually allow me to know how much damage I'm doing from second to second without having to resort to a 3rd party option...

The amount of people I encounter who offer unhelpful and negative criticism in all games I play encourages me to strongly dislike anything that might give them ammo.

Two thoughts here...

1. People who want to be jerks are going to be jerks regardless of how much ammo they do or don't have. If they're in a party that isn't passing a DPS check and they have no parser, they'll just vote to kick the DPS playing the class perceived to be the weakest.

2. I'd be more on board with the whole "don't let people have ammo to be toxic" idea if tanks and healers weren't already subjected to this exact sort of scrutiny all the time. Adding some means of judging a DPS' contribution would actually be leveling the playing field to be equal to what tanks and healers already experience.

That said, I'd still take anything that actually allowed me to know how much damage I'm doing from second to second, period.

[Krotoan]

Two thoughts here...

1. People who want to be jerks are going to be jerks regardless of how much ammo they do or don't have. If they're in a party that isn't passing a DPS check and they have no parser, they'll just vote to kick the DPS playing the class perceived to be the weakest.

2. I'd be more on board with the whole "don't let people have ammo to be toxic" idea if tanks and healers weren't already subjected to this exact sort of scrutiny all the time. Adding some means of judging a DPS' contribution would actually be leveling the playing field to be equal to what tanks and healers already experience.

1. True, jerks are jerks and will be no matter what we do, but denying them one more thing to superficially bitch about is a good thing.

2. I tank too. I don't want people ALSO bitching about the DPS I'm doing/not doing in addition to how I don't use cooldowns and/or should pull more stuff. I imagine a parser would also be able to tell you how much the Healer is overhealing or not contributing to DPS, that sounds like extra unfun they don't need. Saying that those classes suffer so DPS should too isn't a great argument. You'd be adding grief to everyone's life if this couldn't be turned off.


I think it's very important to provide the functionality everyone is asking for without auto-opting in everyone.