Why do you fail at Hashmal?

[Nestmile]

...but no, the casual player base in general really isn't that good. Mayhaps a representative of this player base can explain things to me?

Hi, someone who considers himself fairly casual (though, to be fair, "casual" is a very nebulous term and others may consider me something more like "lazy midcore" or whatnot) here.

I don't know how serious you were or weren't about this request, or if you were just venting, but I'd argue that it would be hard for such a "player base" that does not necessarily self-select into that category would have any sort of representative that could accurately represent even a small fraction of the players that might fall under that umbrella. That being said, I'm happy to offer my own thoughts. Of course, it's only personal anecdotes -- not very helpful in the grand scheme of things!

To start with, my sample size is quite low -- only three or four runs. 24-man content stresses me (and my laptop, haha) out a bit, so I don't run it much unless I'm specifically invited to do so (and even then I often pass). However, I've never died on Hashmal personally. And, to be frank, I would attribute that mainly to playing Bard and being able to pump out my rotation both on the move and at a distance. It seems much easier to keep track of the battle from the sidelines when it comes to Hashmal, as opposed to standing around in the middle as a melee and having to sweep around on all sides to see what's going on.

Another strong factor in my favor is that when I go, I'm more often than not on voicechat with more experienced players who are happy to call things out if need be, although mostly it's just general chatter going on. Still, it really helps me stay focused and for my first run especially it really smoothed things out. Many players probably don't have this advantage, for one reason or another. Tied in with this is that I'm running with a party (or at least a few members) I know I can rely upon.

However, even though these are players who have cleared the current Savage tier, some of them still end up having a nice chat with the floor during Hashmal. Which I guess brings me to my point: I don't think this is a problem that is expressly related to "muh casuals!" I'm perfectly willing to concede that there are plenty of more casual players who simply aren't as skilled as more hardcore players, and that of course will lead to slip-ups and underperformance. I don't think anyone would tell you otherwise. Additionally, more casual players might tend towards having slower reaction times or having to think more actively to recognize mechanics than being able to instinctively react to them, which can also lead to mistakes. I guess the idea is "everyone makes mistakes, but people who don't practice as much naturally make more." But a problem that both groups can share in these situations is, well, lack of effort.

Or maybe, more accurately, diffusion of responsibility. The more people there are, the less personally responsible each individual will feel for the group's overall success. I think that's pretty natural. However, on all ends of the player spectrum, it can lead to complacency and laziness. "Oh, it's okay if I flub this mechanic, the healer will get me." "Well, it's fine if our alliance wipes, the other two will pick us up and/or finish it off themselves." Those kinds of things. Maybe more casual players feel like they can get carried. Maybe more experienced players think it's a good chance to goof off a bit since there are more bodies to pick up the slack (and, let's face it, Rabanastre isn't that difficult, so I doubt they'd feel terribly obligated to face up to some sort of challenge). Plus it's much easier to hide one's mistakes amidst the chaos of the fight and 24 bodies, so you're less likely to get called out on that sorta stuff. In fact, I suspect part of the reason some players might struggle to learn is that it's harder (at least to me -- maybe not for more experienced/observant players?) to identify who's struggling and for what reasons, and thus they don't get as much personally directed advice. While anonymity protects you from abuse (to an extent), it also prevents you from seeking ways to improve (to that same extent).

I have no idea if this answers any questions or provides any insights, but I thought it couldn't hurt to put down some thoughts, disorganized as they might be (I've got a bit of a headache going, sorry!). So...yeah there's my little spiel, haha.

TL;DR: I don't think it's some mystery specifically related to Hashmal. It's the same ol' problems you'd see in anything else. Hashmal just isn't as horrifyingly outgeared as the other stuff yet so the mistakes matter more.

[KaivaC]

snip

It's no problem, rant away

My contention is that it's not all casual players who I'm saying are bad. However, I have to say a huge chunk of the casual base are just...not all that great at their jobs. Keep in mind, I'm not exactly speaking about sprouts and all that, but I do believe once you hit level 50, you should be able to get through a lot of content. On the voice chat aspect, I've only used voice chat for progging through Savage - after that, I don't use it because I don't necessarily need it. But that is just me.

But the whole point of this thread was not just on one or two players - there are 23 others in the same raid as you, and at a minimum, 8 of them have been terrible in a huge portion of my runs. I get Hashmal is pretty hard for casual content, but it's not patch week anymore...1/3 of the players in a raid should not be floor tanking this raid at this point. It's not even Ozma, with his different attacks, or Forgall, which does require some coordination to get through.

[AxlStream]

I'll tempt myself with people are only spamming 1 while looking at Netflix. Am I close?

[Nestmile]

-Snip-

Hmm, yeah, I see where you're coming from. It's not that your expectations are unreasonable, but... well, expecting anything tends to mean you're bound to be disappointed, unfortunately. That's not to say that you shouldn't have expectations either, it's just... maybe this is a bit cynical, but maybe you should try not to be too surprised or frustrated when people don't meet them. People are... pretty unreliable on the whole, and incomprehensible even moreso.

To be fair as well, it makes sense that more of the players who struggle to perform their roles (even in a bare-bones fashion) would fall into the "casual" base, simply because that very lack of skill is a barrier to being considered part of a... "higher tier," I guess I'd say, of players, no? I guess that also sort of brings up the question of how you'd define where these players fall, especially just at a glance. Is it just a matter of their performance? That would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Their gear level? The jobs they have capped? What metric are we using to define "casual" as opposed to "midcore" or "hardcore?"

Overall though, I fear that there are probably no satisfactory answers to your concerns. Some people just aren't very good. Some people just don't care very much. And if I'm conceptualizing the idea most people have of "casual" players, how could those people fall into any other category?

[KaivaC]

I'll tempt myself with people are only spamming 1 while looking at Netflix. Am I close?

Who knows...seems to be the trend.

[KaivaC]

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That's the thing...I don't often get frustrated to the point where I'm willing to make a topic over it. It's just very noticeable because Hashmal is still literally the wall. I don't necessarily have a metric...it seems the midcore begins when you start progging Savage modes, I suppose. Because those are definitely not casual content. O2S and O3S are still a problem, and they are much harder than fighting Hashmal...well...not so much with O2S, it's just remembering things.

[SenorPatty]

Ok, I'm gonna take a poke at this. Since this thread is talking about why people suck at Hashmal and not necessarily how they're sucking at their job, I'm just gonna put how my first time went. (went in blindly as my smn)

Quake IV

Initial reaction: Don't see any telegraphs so I'm gonna assume its some tankbuster or raid wide dmg
Final reaction: Ok, raid wide dmg. not a prob

Jagged Edge
Initial reaction: Ah, its the red poop of death with delays. Ive seen this before
Secondary reaction: And people are dying to that. Guess they haven't experienced that mech too often.
Final reaction: Guess it invisibly targets some people since it continues a couple more times and not necessarily where I am.

Rock cuttter:
Initial reaction: Haha, a pokemon move. I think. Ok where's its coming from now
Secondary reaction: nothing came up. hmm.
Final reaction: *after seeing it like, 5 times in the raid* didn't hurt nobdy else in my party and my tank's not MT. Maybe its a tankbuster

Extreme edge:
Initial reaction: Oh shit, its one of those dragon boss dive thingies. I'll just move to the left---aaaand everyone went right. I'm probably gonna die. (dies to it)
Secondary reaction: *After dying two more times to it* When it doubt adjust camera. *Spins camera like, everywhere until I see Hashmal* Ooooh
Final reaction: Still died to it cuz I was too slow at running. Maybe there's a visual clue about this guy. *Would later check in a guide that the arm that burns is the side you don't want to be into*

Earth Hammer:
Initial reaction: Ah, the ole meteor wide thingie. Run to the edge for dear life.
Final reaction: Easy peasy

Control Tower:
Initial reaction: *after seeing Hashmal cut the pillars* that's pretty badass. *dodges them
Secondary reaction: Huh, its actually easier to dodge these if you're close to the boss cuz you have an idea of where they're falling. Plus I can run between them.
Final reaction: *After seeing lots of people die to it* Visual based mechs are gonna be the bane of everyone's playthrough this raid.

Command tower:
Initial reaction: *after seeing someone kick the bucket from it* rule of thumb: no one should ever stand above or under big things. Unless you're bismarck.
Secondary reaction: Ah, that's our dps check. Cross the fingers and hope everyone knows their basics. *Sand spheres are summoned* Oh. Basics are not gonna cover this. Better haul ass.
Final reaction: *After clearing the dps check* Ok, I have hope. Now if I stop dying to Hashmal's dive, everything will be peachy.

Golem Summon:
Initial reaction: Moar dps checks. Yaaay
*Final reaction: I love being a smn


So yeah that was me on my first try. The hashmal dive was the one that gave me the most trouble cuz I couldn't pick up on his visuals.

[RitsukoSonoda]

Hashmal has mechanics that require a small amount of teamwork and coordination from players... You know... That thing we used to have no problem with doing with random people over the internet in online games until like 10 or so years ago. >.>

Also just an FYI on Rockcutter. It is a tank buster however its also an unmarked short cone AoE. If you stand near the tank you will get hit by it as well so do not stand in front of Hashmal unless you either are not squishy or want to tank the floor.

[Nestmile]

-Snip-

Yeah from what I've seen you're generally pretty levelheaded, so I was surprised to see this topic coming from you, to be honest. (Is that weird to say? I lurk a lot and usually notice your posts 'cause you're also on Siren, haha.)

And again, I definitely sympathize with that frustration! I'm not really sure why people struggle too much with Hashmal, either, to be honest. I'm just kind of spitballing and/or trying to understand exactly who we're talking about. So, like, I think that progging Savage is probably a reasonable point at which to say "midcore" might start. But my question was more along the lines of "how do you know where the people who are underperforming on Hashmal fall on the scale?"

[KaivaC]

snip

Oh don't get me wrong, I experienced the same thing. Took me about 3 tries or so before I could get Hashmal down. Even though it's part of the Ivalice storyline, I feel like Hashmal and Argoth...whatever his name is, should switch places as bosses. Can you imagine if 24-mans had a hard version of them?!