Why do you fail at Hashmal?

[Cheremia]

How many mechanics are actually oneshot other than the pillars in your face?
I survive them all as whm, for the flaming arm its only the bleed that kind of makes it look like an insta death but i won't bother timing my esuna for you in that case if you're on the other side of the field. Tahs not my problem then.

Didn't die on the flaming arm in like... 10+ runs? No matter where i am, i just pop a sprint if i'm not in the middle and i'm good. Always, i can even manage to position myself if ihappen to have marker/purple aoe under me before he even rushes around.
I do admit that the purple aoes are kind of hard to see sometimes but if you know when they happen, its fine. And even if, i can, as a whm, get hit by one without dying... so just move your butt out of it instead of getting hit twice and dying.

Haven't had a wipe on the sand spheres in a while either, only if people are incapable of running to their alliance and getting the marker. And then thinking its a good idea to stack two stack marker. Died to that one once though because i was busy ressing other alliances and kinda tunnel visioned there.

The adds usually get lbed to death instantly in the runs i've had, too. Even if not, they Do get targeted down.

So in short: People die because they literally pay NO attention at all. They never move and get hit twice by things you survive if you get hit once, they tunnel vision to the point they can't even match their alliance letter to the letters that get put down. They don't notice obvious patterns such as him literally not being targetable and then react way too slow and then say its too fast(not talking about not seeing the arm, i don't have that problem...

And i'm just a casual, too but i don't refuse to learn mechanics and go healer because i do NOT trust anybody for good reasons...

So like, people saying its bad designed because alot of it oneshots you... its only one thing that does. The Pillars. Everything else is at least a two shot and you can prevent that from happening. If a healer survives mechanics, dps and tanks should, too.( i do survive it all as brd but brd has better equip)
I would say the last boss is worse designed because of the scatter thing being completely wrong in the meaning and people get hit for the black mask because they don't know auto attack triggers it, too.
Same goes with the markers,w hich you putin the middle and nowhere else, so it doesn't make sense. They just trick you but if you stay int he middle, you don#t have to move, so its a wasted mechanic.
Or spamming your move button in confuse to kind of negate the effect of it.
Or what about esuna'ing the debuff on the tank buster on the horse? That only works when it wants to, even if you time it 100% perfect and its gone before the hit.

Thats more annoying that anything Hashmal does in my book because you just can't do it as intended or cheese it to death.

[Tridus]

How many mechanics are actually oneshot other than the pillars in your face?

Towers are a one shot.
Extreme edge is usually a one shot because timing removing the bleed is really tricky and only a tank has the HP to survive the first tick.
Missing a sand sphere DPS check is a raid wipe.
Going to the wrong place and getting a double stack marker is a one shot at best, if you take that second stack marker away to die alone. At worst you take half a group with you if you try to stack two of them up.
Rock cutter is a one shot if you're not a tank.
Earth hammer is a one shot.

What does he do that isn't a one shot if you mess it up aside from jagged edge?

[VanilleFang]

Towers are a one shot.
Extreme edge is usually a one shot because timing removing the bleed is really tricky and only a tank has the HP to survive the first tick.
Missing a sand sphere DPS check is a raid wipe.
Going to the wrong place and getting a double stack marker is a one shot at best, if you take that second stack marker away to die alone. At worst you take half a group with you if you try to stack two of them up.
Rock cutter is a one shot if you're not a tank.
Earth hammer is a one shot.

What does he do that isn't a one shot if you mess it up aside from jagged edge?

One "To Dust" can be survived. So not really a one shot mechanic.
Double stacking markers doesn't really count as a one shot though. Because technically that's 2 shots. Technically. :P
A lot of tank busters are one shots to non-tanks so I don't really think you can count that.
A lot of AoEs like Earth Hammer are one shots. Choco Meteor for example.

[Cheremia]

But all of them are avoidable if you pay attention and... actually do the mechanics?
Is it bad that it punishes you with dying if you, yourself, don't move out of the way? I don't see it as oneshot in itself because it does NOT kill you instantly if youa ctually manage to... move. Like, what else should not doing anything do? Faceroll the whole thing without ever doing a mechanic?

Pillars are one thing where i think its fine to die on sometimes. Hashmal IS big and if you're positioned wrong and don#t see the pillar cut behind him and the other one is directly in your face- one falling on you can happen. Or you get hit by a pixel.
Bleed kills you if you don't move, your fault (not factoring in not being able to see the fire ont he arm)
Rock cutter kills you because youre taking a tankbuster and if the tank tries their best to move it away but you/dps dance around in front anyways, your fault. Theres only so much a tank can do if the majority is in one spot and the rest is in front of Hashmal, too.
Earth hammer kills you because you weren't able to follow the boss, that moves away with the tank. For whatever reason. Your fault.
You CAN survive 2 exploding orbs on a good day, if all 3 explode, everybody does something wrong. Only seen more than 1 explode on the first week of the raid.
Doube stack marker: The straggler does EVERYTHING wrong and the dying alliance pays for it.

Being punished for doing nothing just isn't bad design, i don't think ozma is a problem, i don't think Scathach is aproblem, i don't think anything punishing is a problem. Its fun if you actually have to pay attention instead of just standing at one spot the whole fight because regen-ticks are enough to keep you alive.

Edit: Thanks qoute for not working apparently. Was for you, Tridus

[Tridus]

But all of them are avoidable if you pay attention and... actually do the mechanics?
Is it bad that it punishes you with dying if you, yourself, don't move out of the way? I don't see it as oneshot in itself because it does NOT kill you instantly if youa ctually manage to... move. Like, what else should not doing anything do? Faceroll the whole thing without ever doing a mechanic?

Never said it wasn't. But an encounter where everything one shots you if you fail it is a somewhat limited design. We've got that because burst healing is so strong that anything in these fights that doesn't one shot you simply isn't that dangerous, which goes back to what we were talking about a couple of pages ago.

Hashmal has lots of deaths and wipes because most of what he does is fatal. The other bosses tend to do nonlethal damage in one hit, so you need to fail multiple things very close together to die, or fail so many things that you stack vuln up enough times that it becomes lethal. Because they tend to do damage with mechanics that are spaced out, you're usually back at full after failing one and before the next one, so it's not a big deal. Same as pretty much everything in expert.

That's where the issue is. Doing moderate damage once and then doing no damage for a few seconds isn't terribly dangerous because the healers can burst the entire group back to full in that time relatively easily. So to actually threaten people, stuff has to be lethal or it has to come so fast that it can outdo our extremely strong burst healing.

People have so many problems with Hashmal compared to the others because it skews so heavily in the direction of one shots, and the healers can't effectively save people getting hit the way they can on the other fights. You put enough humans together and some of them will screw stuff up, because that's how groups of humans are.

Being punished for doing nothing just isn't bad design, i don't think ozma is a problem, i don't think Scathach is aproblem, i don't think anything punishing is a problem. Its fun if you actually have to pay attention instead of just standing at one spot the whole fight because regen-ticks are enough to keep you alive.

But see, that's my overall point. Healing shouldn't be so strong that you *can* eat everything and regen is enough to keep you alive. That's the problem. If healing is less powerful, standing around eating everything is going to whittle your HP down and eventually kill you without it being a one shot, because the healers won't be able to bring you back up to full so easily. That lets encounters be risky in terms of incoming damage without having to resort to one shots all over the place.

[KaivaC]

You realize you're the common denominator in these fail groups. Maybe it's a you thing, rather than a them thing.

Failing at Hashmul is understandable. You have no right to complain until you run into groups who fail at Lakshmi NM.

For Lakshmi, I actually have not been in a party that has not cleared her fight. Surprisingly.

For the other comment...I'm not...sure if that was directed specifically at me, or if it was answering the question. Don't want to put up the wrong response for a misunderstanding.

[Alisi]

For the other comment...I'm not...sure if that was directed specifically at me, or if it was answering the question. Don't want to put up the wrong response for a misunderstanding.

You haven't heard that before? It's what you say when people complain about how terrible other people are. ;P

Honestly, I think it's because people run bots in raids now. As a healer, I'm seeing a ton lately. The other three are easy enough that you have to actively try to wipe but with Hashmul, it's easier.

[KaivaC]

snip

I have? I don't recall saying that to anyone in the forums, but I could be wrong. Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting that it's one or two people in this particular fight - there's usually 1 or 2 players dying in 24-mans. My question/complaint is more or less on when it's a majority of an alliance that ends up dying. I could understand the flaming arm, because you do have to rotate your camera to try and find Hashmal, but dealing with the sandspheres, eating the huge conal AOEs from the Command Tower, a non-tank taking a Rock Buster to the face...those are things that I'm referencing.

[Alisi]

snip

I haven't been in a raid that has wiped on Hashmul in a while... But if you want an actual reason, I will have to say: shitty healers who ignore the other alliances. I actively heal and/or rez people in other alliances. Alliances don't generally all die at once. It's a DPS then a healer and everyone else fails from there. Hashmul has enough mechanics that are easy to get killed on for a variety of reasons (from being crappy to having lag.) We are alliances, not armies of 8 people. We're supposed to be supporting each other. Often times, I'll support other alliances and they'll have no issues but when that support isn't reciprocated, our alliance often dies. If one alliance is dead, and you're a healer in another that's alive and well, then you take a share of the blame on yourself. If one alliance actually has to ask another to rev one of the healers (especially when the whole alliance is dead), then congrats: you're a shitty alliance healer.

[Alleo]

I can do nearly all of the fight without any deaths..but I just suck at the pillars..there are runs where I am lucky and dont get hit and there was one run where I nearly got hit by each single pillar..I felt really bad..I am far away from a bad player and I do understand the bosses and unlike someone does not heal me or I make a stupid mistake I rarely die on the rest..but these pillars..a friend said that you can see how they will fall by the way of how they are cut but it just takes me too long to see that..

At first I was annoyed at people getting killed by them but after some rather unfortunate runs myself I am not angry at those that die at them. Its just not that easy to see in the short time until they fall and they do have a rather big hitbox. x) So even if I see that they will fall my way it might already be too late. Would be nice if those pillars would give us stacks or maybe nearly kill us but one hit killing is really annoying.

(So yeah in the end I just suck at them. x))