Why do you fail at Hashmal?

[silverlunarfox]

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Thousands of players play the game, it will never be just 2 or 3 players. Don't just wait for someone to ask for help. Make points (politely) to aid others. Alot of people I've run into are in that 340 gear but maybe never noticed a trick to a mechanic, or a certain way to tweak their rotation etc. Sometimes things are just overlooked. That coupled with job boosts now its more of an issue. But its not a bad thing if people help others. Yes normally when you run a 24 man you'll have a higher chance of coming across people who may not be the best at the game. But that doesn't mean they can't be! I've worked with plenty of bad alliances (and beyond hope alliances I must admit) that got better with guidance and help, and you know what thats 7 other players (on a bad night) that now can run the content even better than before! We help shape the community. Just calling out and asking why are people so bad/or fail work against the community.

You have to look at it from the standpoint Hashmal does alot of damage and does it relatively quickly combined with one shot insta deaths. It's very easy to screw up more so than most content aside from savage. Typically in savage, you know from the get go if a group will work or not. With a 24 man, you can mostly, mostly cheese Mateus to get to Hashmal. So many, even new players are unprepared for the steep increase in difficulty. At first you may be thinking, oh this party is going to be great! (I always think of Lucio with that.....) Then Hashmal appears and everyone is dead. Even for seasoned vets whom I've also seen take a column or wing to the face. In the end, stuff happens, bad luck and placement happens, and everyone dying happens. Again, as in my previous post, its how you bounce back and learn from the fight that makes the difference.

[KaivaC]

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There's only so much help that one can give. Put it this way, even on the occasions when I do voice my help, it's usually drowned out by others ridiculing all who caused the wipe, or there are vote abandon spams, or even rage quits. I'm not even viewing this as a raider, but as a former casual player. Let me throw in another example, one I have used before. In Baelsar's Wall, that second boss with the 'Extreme Caution debuff'...if I kindly explain, after a wipe, that you shouldn't move or take any action as soon as you get hit with the 'Extreme Caution debuff' (i.e. you get three red circles surrounding you), and two further wipes later, a majority of the party still dies to that, there's an issue. Let's not bring up the language, because in those two runs I've had there, they spoke the same language as I just fine. It's things like that that make me wary of offering advice because, what's the point if people in general will not listen, no matter how politely you put it.

It's the same with Rabanastre. In the first month, most people listened because most people wanted to get through the rest of the raid. I'm not suggesting I didn't see those moments with rage quitters, toxicity, and vote abandon spams, because that's pretty much everywhere throughout MMOs. Nowadays, no matter how nicely you explain it, no matter how detailed or how well it is explained, it still happens in the exact same run, leading to most of the raid finally caving in and voting to abandon. One bad night does not equate what seems like Hashmal fights hitting a very massive wall more often than not currently. Granted, everybody's experience is very different. I'm on the Aether Datacentre, so it could be different on Primal, or maybe, just maybe, I'm just unlucky enough to be seeing these runs more often than others. I don't know.

[Lilseph]

There's only so much help that one can give.

I'm on the same boat with you here. I have given up on teaching and explaining things. I remember some people tried to vote kick me for telling the tank how to tank in World of Darkness. When we cleared I /clap at him and they got offended thinking I was being sarcastic. -.-

I expect them to know what they are doing or research on their own. It's not my responsability.

[Sieben79]

Alright, fair enough. Allow me to retort. If it were 2 or 3 players, I can promise that this thread would not have been created (by me, at least). I will throw out help if someone needs or asks for it. My issue is not with the few, but when entire alliances get wiped out, repeatedly, I might add; I start to wonder what the problem is. I know hardcore players who are in full ilvl340 who repeatedly fail over and over again to O1S slides. But that's Savage, and that's an issue somebody would have to take up if they wanted to speak on it. I was only talking about content that everybody accesses normally. If this was just about a few players, I'd be venting about it in the Tales from the Duty Finder lol.

Keep in mind, I'm not posting this just because I've only seen it happen once or twice. I see it happening very consistently - I usually get maybe two good runs out of a month, then Hashmal becomes a problem all over again. And for those bad runs, it's not just a couple player - it's usually a majority of a single alliance or, in one very special case, about half of the entire raid messed up and we all died to his Ultimate.

I think people die because of herds mentality. In other 24-Raids or boss fights there are safe spots, where every player goes if specific mechanics happen, but the Hashmal fight punish you if you go where all other goes. Beware of Refugium, Collective Unconscious or Sacred Coil after the Tripel Hammer. People who don't know this fight think it's safe because the Healer decided to place it there, but all what awaits is death

Also there are first timers or people second or third run. We don't know. Maybe you're just unlucky with your teams.
My own experience ratio with hashmal ist 70/30 where 70 are the good runs without a wipe. The ratio of runs without deaths ist 10/90 and after about 100+ of runs (because of gear farming) even I die to a tower because I underestimated it and will die to it (playing mostly Blackmage).

[KaivaC]

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Heh....maybe I am running into bad luck. I dunno. I've been through on all three roles, so I have a general idea of how to tackle the fight from each perspective.

[Sieben79]

Heh....maybe I am running into bad luck. I dunno. I've been through on all three roles, so I have a general idea of how to tackle the fight from each perspective.

I don't deny it that there are also lazy players in teams or leecher who always get a call from work or had a lag for whole 15 minutes and then do nothing. I also played Paladin, Whitemage in Rabanastre, so it's not only a view from a DD side But Blackmage is fun for me to do the mechanics and do damage in this more or less chaotic environment.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I'd like to address this as a misconception. Casual doesn't mean bad. I am a casual player but I am very good at the classes I play and with mechanics.

Agreed casual really should not be the community go-to as a measure of skill. It really fits better as measure of time played. For instance, I myself am a very casual player because I play a mere 2-3 hours a week.However, I wanted to respond to this to draw attention to an issue I very frequently see in the FF14 community. When people make a statement or offer advice, your credibility is directly influenced by your experience.

Frequently we see low information players make comments like "I have every character at 70 I know what I am talking about", or "I have a mentor crown, so I know more than you", when in fact neither of those (and many other instances) are indicative of actual subject matter expertise.

In your specific example, you've made a decision to hide your logs. That is a red flag to me that demonstrates that you may lack the class/mechanic expertise you claim to possess (not that you do, merely that it is likely).

Couple that with a statement you made below about another healer who had "eaten a couple columns", but then stated that they were indeed a good healer. However, evidence clearly shows the opposite. We all make mistakes for sure, ESPECIALLY including myself, but repeatedly dying to the same mechanic and calling that player good is a red flag that further cripples your credibility.

I'm all for helping people, in fact I thoroughly enjoy it, but they have to want to be helped. In my admittedly anecdotal, experience the playerbase simply does not take tips/criticism well regardless of how many smileys, how colloquial, or cat girl ASCII memes I post while attempting it.

Last piece - please understand this is not intended as an attack on you personally, but merely a demonstration intended to show that if you want to be more credible to your audience you need to demonstrate you come from a position of subject matter expertise.

[KaivaC]

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On this subject, however, since we are talking specifically about Rabanastre, while I agree that experience does play a role in a person's credibility, FFlogs really has no bearing outside of Savage runs....not that I'm aware of players who even have time to check Fflogs in a 24-man. I get what you're trying to say myself, but that being said, the FFLOGs comment doesn't really have much of a bearing when it comes to Rabanstre or really, the thread at hand.

*edit*

And I've actually hit my posting limit for the day...surprisingly. Haven't hit that since my first few months here. I do encourage a wider discussion on this, though. Seems like I touched on something beyond Hashmal, so I'm actually looking forward to what other posters might say and how this discussion will evolve.

*edit 2*

If anybody catches this comment, what are the post limits? Or where can I find them? Might have to start multi-quoting in my replies.

[ChloeGrace]

It's almost always when I get hemmed in from someone else stacking those purple circles on/near me and I can't get out in time.
That, and healers dying so often they can't keep up with the raid-wide splash damage.

[LaylaTsarra]

It's almost always when I get hemmed in from someone else stacking those purple circles on/near me and I can't get out in time.
That, and healers dying so often they can't keep up with the raid-wide splash damage.

Got to love when they do that to the healer. Trying to keep myself up and they double circle you and poof. Personally I love the raid and I choose to heal it now as opposed to dps on my main and alts.