My Analysis of BLM's issues and why it is currently the worst DPS class.

[ManuelBravo]

Ah thx so reference. So some of his input was used. Then I'm actually surprised he is missing some info and did not include this source in his analysis. Also would be nice if they used full name for recognition and server. There are a few people with same name.

[Llugen]

I mean, his discord tag is basically the equivalent of his full name for callout.

I'd definitely always recommend looking into players' lodestones/various profiles when considering what they have to say. This is what I mean when I refer to "Shisui AFKers" talking about balance. There is nothing wrong with AFKing in your Shisui armor if that's how you want to play the game, but there IS something inherently wrong with suggesting that the input offered by someone who does not play the content/have "credentials" is somehow equal to the input of someone who does (note: I am not trying to call you out specifically on this, I just mean in general)

[Kabooa]

Argh it's like beating a dead horse. Oh well with these I'm done unless you have some actual data.

FFLogs.

Literally all the information from most if not all the high end players are posted there.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

....Sorry to use you as such an example, but this is the kind of thing that makes us facepalm really hard. It's like watching Prism argue with Sfia about BLM in the other threads.

I don't remember ever arguing with Sfia tbh, then again that thread is reallllllly long. Was it RDM or BLM related though, cause the most really I touch on BLM is the kind of support/utility it needs. I certainly don't think their damage is totes fine.

Edit: Yeah no.. I've never argued with Sfia, do you mean Ellie or Ceallach?

[Shiroe]

unless you can raid 6-8h everyday or are the centerpiece in the static (get extra attention with buffs, heals etc.), majority of blm will say, blm svcks for multiple reasons...

giving Blm "utility" would mean giving Blm agreat overhaul, so big..., it might lose its identy... unless its something like a magic vun bulid in the blm standard rota more or less (trying to weave in anyother utility moves, the way blm works atm, wont fruit well. . manashift is alreadt a pain to weave in the rota at the right moment)

increasing its dps slighty, like SE says, probabky wont change the comp problem Blm has at the moment either.. (atleast blm will get some mobility tweaks.., so when learing a fight, blm wont svck as hard)

atm after hearing the QA, still worring for blm

[Maku]

I'm looking at flogs and though there isn't many parses for BLM, BLM is coming up fourth. So is it really in that bad of a place ?

[Llugen]

I just want to say again "its identity" of raw damage low utility only started at the launch of Stormblood. I'd be more than happy to see that mentality bite the dust.

Before 4.0, BLM had exclusive access to Apocatastasis, which was a life saver for tank busters and for spot-saving players from dying to party busters. It also had access to Eye for an Eye, which absolutely helped with mitigation immensely (particularly during progression), and had mini-Virus for physical adds. Furthermore, while Lethargy was not as good of a heavy as Blizzard, it still worked at no GCD cost, and sometimes that alone was enough (and of course there was also Blizzard in an emergency/when clipping MP). Might be a stretch, but BLM could also assist greatly with solo tank strats in Turn 13 by using Manaward and helping soak Akh Morn, and tank a whole mountain buster/flatten with Manawall back in the day (!!!). BLM in this game was never "raw damage", ever. This is a myth. Only since 4.0 was it blessed (cursed, really) with "raw damage, low utility".


Not only is this adage inaccurate (group damage > personal damage, always), but it inherently pre-disposes classes, and by extension players, to experience being shut out of groups because they don't bring desirable buffs/utility. Consider again just how locked in DRG/NIN are, and by extension BRD+MCH. Their utility is too good, that being Disembowel, Shadewalker, passive crit buff, etc.



As you said, not everyone can be a "star BLM" in their party (not everyone can be Blackcat), so please, by all means, sacrifice our "identity" that sucks in the first place and was only that way since 4.0 in the first place by giving us something(s) that are real/meaningful to bring to a party.

[Remedi]

The letargy bit is why I say that Break is junk as a role action and should be reworked.

That said I think that even a job could be considered a raw damage one even with a CD that increases the raid dps by something if it comes as a passive addition.

That's why i said in the other topic that MCH could be considered a selfish dps even while having the effect of hypercharge. If we use that + the precedent that SAM has access to slash down, I don't really see any way why BLM couldn't get something too.
But seems that ppl just stops to the surface of my point anyway so nevermind

[ChaozK]

I'm looking at flogs and though there isn't many parses for BLM, BLM is coming up fourth. So is it really in that bad of a place ?

Its pretty much the worst dps right now. There are only 2 dps in the game that dont boost anyone else's dps, BLM and SAM. Every other dps has a lot more raid dps than the ranking shows due to providing raid buffs. So in order to be at least acceptable it would need to be first or second highest dps along with SAM.

The clearest comparison is of course with SMN. Not only does SMN outdps BLM by 200 dps it also provides raidbuffs that are worth another 200 dps and it can rezz which BLM cant. If you now consider that SMN is top dps and is arguably not even meta it really makes clear of how bad in a spot BLM is.

[HaroldSaxon]

BRD only dmg buff that affects him is foe and they still have to sacrifice MP for it's uptime so in a way it's the BRD sacrificing something (and a GCD) to bring support to everyone.
The rest of the BRD supportive skills either do not affects him or they require some working around or are single targets, MCH is not like that Hypercharge is integral to their toolkit and their entire toolkit is based around WF and generally speaking is more tailored to be dps centric, DIsmantle is there mostly because ANY DPS in the game brings a dmg down effect of some sort.

That's the difference I'm looking at active support over passive. DPS centric jobs could bring passive support in some way and we already have the precedent with SAM.

On ultimate dps rankings MCH is about 150 or so dps higher than BRD (somewhat before raidwise buffs) and quite frankly BRD as an advantage over MCH in that fight.
If we consider the fact that MCH is a more dps centric job than BRD we can use that as a template for dps carries too.

However, You are not wrong in the fact that if everyone brings hypercharge/trick attack then it's not something special and it is a risk atm.

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Wanderer's_Minuet
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Mage%27s_Ballad
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Army%27s_Paeon

All three provide supportive actions while giving an additional effect for Bard that gives a DPS boost. But the debate isn't even comparing Bard with Machinist. Its comparing Machinist with BLM (shock horror in a thread about BLM).

The thing is, the classes don't NEED to be "copies" of each other. RDM hits hard and has dualcast, as well as the melee combo/dash in-dash out. SMN has strong DoTs, fillers, and off-GCD nukes/burst phases. BLM has "sustained" hardcasted "turret" damage. This alone makes the classes different enough from a gameplay standpoint to make it matter less to me if their actual tools are pretty similar. Being capable of the same things is different than having the same playstyle/feel, and in my opinion that's the difference as far as good vs bad "homogenization" is concerned.

The issue with the logic of "raw damage caster vs support caster vs res dispenser caster" is that it is ONLY the caster role that has additional access to Raise outside the healers as far as DPS classes are concerned. You're shooting yourself/yourselves in the foot by playing/bringing BLM over a class that has recovery. This is why I brought up the SAM/BLM paradox in the other thread; if you want a "strong damage" class in your group, it makes more sense to bring SAM for it and then SMN/RDM for the support than it does to bring BLM and then have no additional access to support.

If you're interested in pushing for the viability of multi-caster comps, then I could see how it'd be valid, but I don't really see it becoming viable in the near future. But at any rate, let's discuss the REAL issue: resistance down strictness.

Give RDM piercing down and BLM magic vuln up, then you could do RDM/BLM/BRD/NIN (and pray they fix VIT for tanks again). BLM buffs the RDM, RDM buffs the BRD, etc. This, however, all flies in the face of "DPS carry"; good groups don't want DPS carries, they want synergistic burst phases with the "support DPS" so that everyone can do strong damage. This is why BLM needs some synergy outside of just selfish DPS.

RDM absolutely does not hit hard. Giving every caster a raise is homogenization. There is no debate at that. You can argue if its a good thing or not, I personally don't think it is. I'd rather see something alternate. And EVEN if you give BLM a Raise, it won't make it anywhere near viable given how the class works (tight timings, always casting). Now, if they were going to make it a role action, that was an OGCD with a long cooldown and no manner cost like you suggested (but as a role action) i'd be open to it - but it would take more than that to fix the class. There would need to be a way for BLM to use the OGCD without incurring a DPS loss (which is a class issue anyway), and we'd need more raw DPS. But I still think that there's other cool skills/mechanics that can be made that isn't a raise.

Right now, sure if you want a selfish DPS class its better to go SAM - but that isn't the point of the thread. Its about having a selfish dps class as an option for the caster role. And flat out SAM shouldn't ever be ahead of BLM on raw dummy DPS.

Giving RDM piercing down won't change a thing. DRG will still be preferred. with MCH/BRD/NIN. Giving BLM Magic Vuln up won't change a thing. You'll still want MCH/BRD/NIN because BLM doesn't do enough raw DPS and the majority of the parties dps is not magical. Even if you get rid of disembowel or give another class magic vuln down - BLM still won't be viable because they do not do enough DPS.

Argh it's like beating a dead horse. Oh well with these I'm done unless you have some actual data. Lets take a couple of things into consideration;

First: your sources;

They are not really off, being that your being "Smoked" is more of player competence and understanding. Your source is more of estimation and like you mentioned not 100% and really gives no actual data just estimations. I'm referring to Trial runs, actual testing. Mine at least were of a set of various communities that have tested. If your raid leader or even yourself were to use ACT you may see a complete different perspective. Your estimated numbers may even lack recommended just to get a new perspective you should try it.

Second; Play smart not hard

I have taken a look at your character, Glad you have cleared content. However having SUM/BLM/RDM and BRD at 70 you can't really compare much in terms of actual experience with other jobs. Maybe you used BRD instead to clear? I Don't know. All you have proven is that it can be done. Kind of that controversy that DRK was broken yet it was able to clear Ultimate coil. what is your point with me looking at your character? Are we comparing achievements? completion? Jobs?

I love BLM however I rather play smart and enjoy the game than make others compensate for my lack of dmg. Being that BLM is squishy healers have to work extra hard to keep them alive. ( From what I have seen and experienced.) Hence why SUM would be a prefer Mage dmg type being it's more flexible and does not depend much on staying in one place. Hence I have SUM as a back up when I can't really depend on my BLM. ( I hate having people carry me ) BLM may not be the most dependable for salvage content and it all really depends on how stubborn you want to be. I have tanked / DPS / and Magic DPS and over all I rather use close range on some and BLM for others. What is your point again? It's all a matter of personal perspective and experience. Now I will ask again do you have a link to an actual community that has tested your theory?

Once again might want to check BLM past threads since last update to them.

I've posted enough sources, if you aren't able to read and are resorting to personal attacks, I think it says it all. BLM is the least squishy out of all of the caster classes. Its not all a matter of personal perspective and experience - its about hard data, facts and evidence which prove my point adequately enough.

I'm looking at flogs and though there isn't many parses for BLM, BLM is coming up fourth. So is it really in that bad of a place ?

4th for a class that provides no raid dps whatsoever? Does that sound right to you? Check out some of those numbers with Balackcat's raid DPS buff.

I just want to say again "its identity" of raw damage low utility only started at the launch of Stormblood. I'd be more than happy to see that mentality bite the dust.

Before 4.0, BLM had exclusive access to Apocatastasis, which was a life saver for tank busters and for spot-saving players from dying to party busters. It also had access to Eye for an Eye, which absolutely helped with mitigation immensely (particularly during progression), and had mini-Virus for physical adds. Furthermore, while Lethargy was not as good of a heavy as Blizzard, it still worked at no GCD cost, and sometimes that alone was enough (and of course there was also Blizzard in an emergency/when clipping MP). Might be a stretch, but BLM could also assist greatly with solo tank strats in Turn 13 by using Manaward and helping soak Akh Morn, and tank a whole mountain buster/flatten with Manawall back in the day (!!!). BLM in this game was never "raw damage", ever. This is a myth. Only since 4.0 was it blessed (cursed, really) with "raw damage, low utility".


Not only is this adage inaccurate (group damage > personal damage, always), but it inherently pre-disposes classes, and by extension players, to experience being shut out of groups because they don't bring desirable buffs/utility. Consider again just how locked in DRG/NIN are, and by extension BRD+MCH. Their utility is too good, that being Disembowel, Shadewalker, passive crit buff, etc.



As you said, not everyone can be a "star BLM" in their party (not everyone can be Blackcat), so please, by all means, sacrifice our "identity" that sucks in the first place and was only that way since 4.0 in the first place by giving us something(s) that are real/meaningful to bring to a party.

BLM has never had utility other than Apoc. Its always meant to be high damage for casters, but SE would always place Melee's above it. Our identity does suck - but not because its a selfish dps - its because we are a selfish dps class that doesn't do enough damage.

The letargy bit is why I say that Break is junk as a role action and should be reworked.

That said I think that even a job could be considered a raw damage one even with a CD that increases the raid dps by something if it comes as a passive addition.

That's why i said in the other topic that MCH could be considered a selfish dps even while having the effect of hypercharge. If we use that + the precedent that SAM has access to slash down, I don't really see any way why BLM couldn't get something too.
But seems that ppl just stops to the surface of my point anyway so nevermind

When people say selfish dps - its said in the meaning that it does not buff raid dps.