This is why this game should'nt get a parse

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

That might be useful, but youd need a frame of reference. If you are doing 10k damage, that can be good or bad. 10k damage when people average 50k is terrible. 10 dmg when people average 5k is amazing. Youll invariably need some sort of reference for an individual parser to be useful.

Isn't that what Reddit is for? :P But yes, I get what you're saying. I'd still like to know my numbers without the comparison with others. Perhaps the personal parser could give you an average percentage based on the other's total output? Like a rating, but without seeing everyone elses numbers? Like, you did XX% of the total damage. That would still be pretty motivating depending on your 'score'.

[HyoMinPark]

If you havent experienced this, groovy. But your personal experiences arent evidence it does not occur at all. Merely that you have not encountered players who do this. Thats all it means. But there are plenty of personal accounts who have said they have encountered players like this (in raids, in dungeons, in Trials) in some capacity.

While I’ve never seen a widespread epidemic of harassment via parsers, I’m not claiming that it doesn’t exist. I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying that. I’m just saying that it’s probably not as widespread (i.e., occurs at some alarmingly high rate, or that 9 out of every 10 people who parse abuse people with it) as some of the more anti-parser crowd make it out to be. In my personal experience, I have seen (and reported) harassment via parser once, and I’ve been playing for 2 years, and doing harder content (Extremes/Savage) for a little over a year. The harassment in question occurred in a Zurvan Ex farm group (and, as everyone knows, that fight was already a gathering for the worse sorts of pissants), and the person doing the harassment certainly had no right to be talking big when it came to their damage. I see far more negativity from people that are against parsers than from people who are for them (like the poster who appeared in another parser debate a few months back that said they report anyone and everyone who they think is maybe parsing, evidence or no, and even this thread’s OP).

On the flip side, your argument can also apply to your own experiences: you may have seen more parser harassment than myself or another poster in this thread, but you can’t use your anecdotal evidence to back up a claim that it is wide-spread. There are plenty of personal accounts that say they have never encountered harassment via parser in the entire time they have been playing the game. The argument goes both ways.

No one will say it doesn’t exist. But to base whether or not such a tool should be implemented on the chance that someone is going to abuse the tool is wrong. There is potential for abuse in every feature in this game; should they all like-wise be removed to protect players from potential Vote Kick abuse? Vote Abandon (because we all know of that one person who likes to spam it in 24-mans the minute the alliance wipes once)? Party Finder exclusions (though, to be fair, the PF leader can set any rules he wants and they be valid; their PF, their rules)? Custom emotes (because there have been some lewd ones)? Implementing an in-game parser would not suddenly make harassment okay; a lot of people assume that, if the developers gave us a valid in-game parser, people could suddenly start harassing people left and right with it, and not be punished for their behavior. But that would not be the case; harassment would still be policed as it is now without a supported parser.

Youre second anecdotal point actually bears out my argument. Players who have a high opinion of themselves take the data from the parser and use it as a means of attacking other players. Im not suggesting that we shouldnt have parsers. Only that you will have to acknowledge that should they be incorporated, you will see an increase in that behavior as it becomes more readily accessible to the player population. There are ups to it, but there are also some downs.

With regards to the bolded statement, no one can actually prove that implementing an in-game parser would cause a rise in assholery. No one can prove that it won’t. It’s best to not make such assumptions because they simply cannot be proven. On either hand. All it does is create unnecessary doomsaying. And there are ups and downs to every system; that’s just the way it is. You can’t have a system that is nothing but good or nothing but bad.

Also, yes. There ARE good people who want to help others. Im not saying they dont exist. In fact, they could very well be a majority of players. But that does not mean that there arent people who are jerks, or people who that theyre not in significant enough number to be damaging to the player base. It is really one of those things that a handful of jerks can spoil the whole experience.

I’ve always been of the mindset that you shouldn’t let the bad apples ruin the entire bunch. Don’t punish the good players because the bad ones are being twats.

Youre conflating in game mechanics with a function that is not necessary to the game, as well as arguing that some people are negative, so adding a parser to teh game wont change the status quo.

I think what he’s getting at, is that adding in parsers is not going to suddenly decrease the amount of harassment that occurs via other avenues because all the harassment is suddenly going to funnel towards parser abuse.

Parsers are, ultimately, not necessary for the game. They provide a LOT of useful info that definitely helps people, but they ultimately are not integral to beating a raid. If youre hitting an enrage, you already know its cause Damage is to low, so people need to review their class and practice it as well as gear and make sure theyre doing fight mechanics right. A parser can help you optimize, but again, is not a necessity. It is a creature comfort, nothing more.

You’re right that parsers aren’t necessary. But, for the rest of your paragraph here:
—If you’re hitting enrage, yes, you’re right that it is already known that damage is low. But, how do you know specifically who and/or what is the culprit? Is it the MNK in the HQ crafted gear? What about the MCH in his high-end gear? Is it the NIN? The BRD? And why? There’s no way of knowing the answers to any of those questions without using a parser to further analyze a log and see: “Oh, well the MNK is doing great, but the MCH is really low for his item level” or “Oh, the NIN isn’t actually using any mudras; that could be why” or “Why is the BRD not using their songs? Or reapplying their DoTs with Iron Jaws? Or using Raging Strikes?”

Furthermore, you will most likely see an increase in toxicity if it became a part of the game for two reasons. 1 is Greater access, means more trolls statistically, and two it will be argued that because its an official part of the game, it can be used as a means to weed out players from groups.

Trolls will be trolls regardless of the tools they have at their disposal. An official parser won’t change that. That being said, like I said previously: harassment will still be handled just as it is now if it’s reported to a GM. They aren’t going to suddenly ignore it because parsers are now “legal”.

This phenomenon has happened in other MMOs via other superficial additions. In WoW, when achievements were added, people soon were required to 'link their achievement' in order to join a group for content. No achievement, no access. This ended up striating the player base a bit and fueling some toxicity. It made it harder for enw players to experience the end game stuff and be a part of the community.

There is already a system like this that “excludes” people: Party Finder’s “duty complete” and “duty completion” options. One filters out people who have not cleared content from joining groups that are for farming, and I think such a filtering is justified. If you haven’t done the content, why are you trying to join a farm group for it with no clear? If you haven’t cleared, start a learning or clear party; don’t join one that has a different objective. I don’t think that implementing a parser would have the same exclusions as your WoW example. If, if you end up in a group that, for whatever reason, demanded 95th percentile play, just leave and find/make another one.

Will maybe add more to this after I finish catching up to the thread; just wanted to write this little bit before I forgot.

[IveraIvalice]

Just my 2 cents. I don't like parsers and I don't want an official one. I'd rather not know then to point fingers at someone. Sure it can help a lot but it can also be used to cast blame and single people out. If a person wants to get better they can parse themselves. But someone parsing someone else is just looking for who to blame, even if your looking to help that person they may not want it and they are still singled out

[TroySoFab]

No parser please, I enjoy only pressing one button and watching anime while I play.

[akaneakki]

Just my 2 cents. I don't like parsers and I don't want an official one. I'd rather not know then to point fingers at someone. Sure it can help a lot but it can also be used to cast blame and single people out. If a person wants to get better they can parse themselves. But someone parsing someone else is just looking for who to blame, even if your looking to help that person they may not want it and they are still singled out

If they dont want it. They should stay out of savage and ex fights.

[HyoMinPark]

Just my 2 cents. I don't like parsers and I don't want an official one. I'd rather not know then to point fingers at someone. Sure it can help a lot but it can also be used to cast blame and single people out. If a person wants to get better they can parse themselves. But someone parsing someone else is just looking for who to blame, even if your looking to help that person they may not want it and they are still singled out

If a person is holding back a group when it comes to content (and I am talking about Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate here, because that is the only content where parsing would actually matter), then something has to be done about it, rather than let the entire group suffer because one person either can’t perform to the expected level of the content, or doesn’t want to get better at all. No one is saying single them out in a rude sense, but if you have a V4S farm group and the SAM is pulling 3,000 DPS with high level gear and no deaths, there’s a problem there, and it needs to be addressed. It shouldn’t be up to the rest of the group to carry/pick up the slack for the person who doesn’t (or who cannot) perform at the level the content is requiring.

If people cannot meet the demands for the content, they don’t need to queue into it. They should improve themselves up to the level of play required for it, and then attempt it. Not just go into it thinking “I’ve done normal mode, so Savage shouldn’t be that much harder” or “It’s okay, the other 3 DPS can pick up the slack in damage I’m not bringing”.

[KaivaC]

Sure it can help a lot but it can also be used to cast blame and single people out. If a person wants to get better they can parse themselves. But someone parsing someone else is just looking for who to blame, even if your looking to help that person they may not want it and they are still singled out

Parsers aren't needed for that. I mean, shoot, people already get singled out and blamed anyways, and a huge majority of the time, it's pretty obvious why they are getting the blame. Go ahead and drop a thundercloud on the only safe zone in Susano Ex a few times. Or tank Alte Roite in Savage and turn him towards the party before he starts readying clamp while the fireballs on the outside areas of the arena are getting ready to explode. Or you could even drop your tentacle right in the middle during O2S. Or hell, just screw up the animal farm and get hit with every single cast when you're a tank or a healer.

Really, it's not hard for another player to single someone out when they're making mechanic mistakes. I've seen blame happen far more from ppl not knowing how to do their jobs properly or screwing up mechanics than I have from numbers.

[IveraIvalice]

I get the reasons to have it if someone is underperforming in a tough fight and you gotta know who, but it will also be used in everything if it is official and easily accessible. There will always be someone that is always watching how their party is doing and will tell someone if they feel like it. When it's an officially supported tool that's in game someone will have it in every content, dungeons, trials, it doesn't matter. It will become ok to tell someone they are bad or not up to that persons expectations because SE made it ok. I know people will be jerks and single out others either way but I don't want to give them the tools to do it. I mean if they are doing it now there's at least the argument that they aren't allowed to do that, but again if it's official then they have every right to do it and to an extent, every right to point fingers and single someone out. There are pros there are cons, and I lean towards keeping parsers out

[Khanscott]

In all reality, I've learned that people who use FFLogs to criticize others generally have no clue of what they are even talking about. A lot of people seem to confuse how a percentile functions with the "color to object" associations that one would be expected to learn in preschool. Don't expect me to explain the apparently subtle differences between those two things. My stance on parsing remains unchanged: people have always been the problem and will always be the problem. You can't expect more than baseless, opinionated crap from a person or group that brands you a pariah because of a cloud grey number whose color happens to be cloud grey.

[HyoMinPark]

I get the reasons to have it if someone is underperforming in a tough fight and you gotta know who, but it will also be used in everything if it is official and easily accessible. . . .When it's an officially supported tool that's in game someone will have it in every content, dungeons, trials, it doesn't matter.

What if a supported parser was added, but it only functioned in Extreme trials, Savage, and Ultimate? Because that’s honestly the only place it’s really needed, and it would be a compromise to keep it out of the more casual dungeons and 24-mans. I’ve always liked the idea someone suggested in one of the older parser debate threads where it was a toggable PF feature, and there was an icon in the PF’s description for Extremes/Savage/Ultimate showing that parsers are going to be used in that party. That way, people who hate them don’t have to partake in a party that is using a supported one, and people that want them for the harder content can have them.

It will become ok to tell someone they are bad or not up to that persons expectations because SE made it ok. I know people will be jerks and single out others either way but I don't want to give them the tools to do it. I mean if they are doing it now there's at least the argument that they aren't allowed to do that, but again if it's official then they have every right to do it and to an extent, every right to point fingers and single someone out. There are pros there are cons, and I lean towards keeping parsers out

It will not be okay for people to harass others over their parser numbers. Harassment isn’t going to suddenly be okay if parsers are supported and implemented in-game. That won’t change.