This is why this game should'nt get a parse

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

After reading a bunch of these replies I guess I don't really have that much of an issue with parsing, so long as it doesn't become the way we judge players in this game (yes, it's in my profile blurb as a negative, but only because I can't handle brospeak). For personal improvement, group improvement, performance breakdown etc, it is an effective tool because its faster than trying to watch what everyone is doing. However, it should never be used to shame or justify shitty behavior--and if becomes a thing on console then yes, it's going to get abused that way. And most of the ppl who do so won't even be 'elitists', they'll just be assholes. As they always were.

On the whole, I think elitists usually hang with other elitists and I encourage this behavior.

(Otherwise I'll get them in an ARR leveling dungeon and they'll leave at spawn because ALL MY SKILLS ARE GONE AND I CANNOT MAR THE PERFECTION THAT IS MY HOTBAR. --This used to happen pretty regularly before SB.)

Also, I don't think PF with set iLvls are really that elitist. It's pretty much just a stopgap to ensure a base level of DPS. You can grind some fairly easy content for the tomes needed for the gear. -And regular Exdeath is a joke. Get them Crystalloids.

[Adeacia]

I've always been torn between wanting an ingame parser, and not wanting one.

On one hand, when I was in a static, I asked for my numbers. I wanted that information.

On the other hand, that information is something that I personally believe should never actually be seen by players for reasons I see here. Talking about having a certain dps amount, clipping cooldowns, and other fine details that bring people into wanting pretty much perfect play. Or "My job does 0.01 dps less than another one, its unbalanced!"

Yes, dps checks / enrage is a thing but you shouldn't need this info to see where you may need work. If you need to squeeze every single possible point out of every player just to clear, then you think maybe you are a tad undergeared? "But Adeacia, what about world first groups?" Yeah, what about them? You act as if they actually matter overall. People who take time off from work just to play this have other issues to think about.

When I was doing Lakshmi EX (a stupidly easy fight, as we all know) when it just came out, the party I was in kept hitting enrage. It didn't take a parser to figure out who was lagging behind on dps. To fix it, I simply went to town with my own dps (I'm a healer) every chance I got and we cleared from then on. Now healers should not be required to dps at all to make up for lack of dps from actual dps, but I like doing it and wanted to actually start getting clears.

To summarize, in my experience (even in savage) it's pretty clear who is lagging and what they need to work on making a parser not needed to begin with.

[akaneakki]

Yes, dps checks / enrage is a thing but you shouldn't need this info to see where you may need work. If you need to squeeze every single possible point out of every player just to clear, then you think maybe you are a tad undergeared? ".

When we progged first week and I died I did more dps than those who never die as ilvl 340 and they should still do more than what I did when they die 1 time too. Gear isn't going to magicaly make you a great dps.
https://imgur.com/rrl6vRk Look at the link.
This was today and the dps died once.. ONCE!!!! and look at the top, the warrior was doing most of the damage and this was a group of full 340. Explain to me why this is happening.
This was also an enrage btw.

[Adeacia]

When we progged first week and I died I did more dps than those who never die as ilvl 340 and they should still do more than what I did when they die 1 time too. Gear isn't going to magicaly make you a great dps.
https://imgur.com/rrl6vRk Look at the link.
This was today and the dps died once.. ONCE!!!! and look at the top, the warrior was doing most of the damage and this was a group of full 340. Explain to me why this is happening.

I was specifically talking about expecting perfect play on every person in the party. My fault for not making that clear enough. I agree that people with lower gear can outdamage people with better gear. It happens all the time. You just shouldn't need a parser to realize someone is lagging behind is what I mean. I know when I mess up my rotation on BRD or let a dot fall off for example. Don't need a parser to tell me that I messed up and my dps is lower than it should have been.

[akaneakki]

I was specifically talking about expecting perfect play on every person in the party. My fault for not making that clear enough. I agree that people with lower gear can outdamage people with better gear. It happens all the time. You just shouldn't need a parser to realize someone is lagging behind is what I mean. I know when I mess up my rotation on BRD or let a dot fall off for example. Don't need a parser to tell me that I messed up and my dps is lower than it should have been.

Yeah that's np. But honestly if you do as low as OP or those guys did at ilvl 340, you dont even have the basic rotation even going on, you are legit spamming buttons all day without know whats going on.
A parser doesn't only tell you the damage, there is so much more than that

[HyoMinPark]

I have to strongly disagree with you, Adeacia, and here’s why (not trying to argue, but I want you to know why I disagree with your post and its points):

On the other hand, that information is something that I personally believe should never actually be seen by players for reasons I see here. Talking about having a certain dps amount, clipping cooldowns, and other fine details that bring people into wanting pretty much perfect play.

This is false. If you read a lot of the parser discussions that go on around here, you would see that a lot of people that want an in-game parser (or who already parse) do not expect 95th percentile play out of random players; I don’t even think they expect 75th percentile play out of them They expect for DPS to do more DPS than a tank, yes, but they do not expect perfection.

The OP is being singled out for their poor DPS because, as a 340 MCH with zero deaths in most of their previous Savage fights, they are pulling below average numbers compared to other MCHs at the same, or even a lower, ilvl; in the fight that is the main complaint of this thread, they were pulling less damage than the tanks. Sure, they died, but one death should not send a DPS below a tank in terms of outgoing damage; it usually takes 2~3 deaths. That, and because they came here looking for sympathy over supposed griefing via parsers that never actually happened (the WAR and AST from that party chimed in to say that there was no harassment over DPS or parsers).

That being said, if a group does not have a certain amount of collective DPS, they will hit enrage. How do players figure out how much rDPS is needed to clear a fight before enrage? With a parser. Because there is no other way to figure that out.

"But Adeacia, what about world first groups?" Yeah, what about them? You act as if they actually matter overall. People who take time off from work just to play this have other issues to think about.

I’m...not really clear on how your comment about world-first raiders comes into play here, but...what world first raiders do is entirely up to them. They enjoy raiding and progging 15~16 hours a day. If they choose to take time off from work or other real-life obligations to win a world-first race, then that’s what they want to do. But don’t say they don’t matter, since some of them are ones who make guides to help more casual/midcore raiders progress (e.g., Xeno), or guides to help with job optimization (e.g., Miyuri gives out a lot of wonderful information about BRD gameplay and optimization).

That being said, since this game does absolutely nothing to teach players a proper endgame or optimized rotation, players that want to push themselves have to turn to outside sources. They don’t have a choice. There’s no accurate way to analyze your performance outside of trial and error with a parser; that’s one way theorycrafters figure out the most optimized rotations and stat weights for certain jobs.

Yeah, the game has SSS, but SSS is not an accurate representation of DPS, because it doesn’t account for things like party buffs (or some self-buffs; I believe Dragon Sight is not accounted for in SSS dummy tests, but would need a DRG to confirm this since I don’t play the job at a Savage level) or mechanics, and the fight is based around a 3-minute target dummy. Not a good representation of an actual fight. A person may be able to clear the dummy, but may not be able to clear the fight.

Yes, dps checks / enrage is a thing but you shouldn't need this info to see where you may need work. If you need to squeeze every single possible point out of every player just to clear, then you think maybe you are a tad undergeared?

If you “have to squeeze out every point” from a player in order to clear a piece of content, then that player is not ready for said content. And it doesn’t even have anything to do with their gear, really (Omega Savage is clearable without full i340). It could be raid awareness (do they die a lot to failed mechanics?), rotation (are they using an old HW rotation, or a suboptimal one that ignores core aspects of the job?), anything really. A player can be i340 and have no idea how to actually play the job they’re rolling (I ran into such a player today in my Expert Roulette—a BRD that used their songs maybe 5 times the entirety of Skalla, and they have cleared V3S).

When I was doing Lakshmi EX (a stupidly easy fight, as we all know) when it just came out, the party I was in kept hitting enrage. It didn't take a parser to figure out who was lagging behind on dps. To fix it, I simply went to town with my own dps (I'm a healer) every chance I got and we cleared from then on. Now healers should not be required to dps at all to make up for lack of dps from actual dps, but I like doing it and wanted to actually start getting clears.

But, could you point out which DPS was specifically lacking? With no numbers to go off of, how would you know which DPS you had to pick up the slack on as a healer to clear? You can’t really unless it’s glaringly obvious. Which brings me to my next point:

To summarize, in my experience (even in savage) it's pretty clear who is lagging and what they need to work on making a parser not needed to begin with.

Not always. Take a ShinEx group I was in. We had such low DPS that we were seeing a second Tidal Wave in first phase. The DPS were: me on RDM (i339), a MCH (in mostly 340 with some 330 pieces), a MNK (crafted 320), and I think the other was a DRG or SAM...another melee DPS (mostly in 330~340). At first glance, who do you think would have such low DPS that we were seeing a second Tidal Wave in first phase? Just going off of things like gear and weapons?

Most people would probably assume the MNK in the crafted 320 gear, but that is incorrect. It was actually the MCH. The MCH was doing less damage than our tanks with no deaths. The MNK had to die twice for them to finally dip below the MCH, and the only reason they died was due to healer neglect (they were targeted for Earth Breath and died to the Sludge DoT, and then just weren’t topped off enough after being raised and died to Ice Storm).

Bottom line is, you can’t always tell who is lagging behind without a parser unless it’s something glaringly obvious, like a BRD that doesn’t use their songs (lack of the critical up buff is the telltale sign there) or a caster where you can actively watch their cast bar to see what they’re doing. To imply that a parser isn’t needed to see performance is incorrect.

(As an aside to this post, another Expert Roulette I was doing, we had a WAR that was just astounded that the DPS was so high on the trash packs [DPS was me on BRD and a random SMN who was just killing it, even with an i320 weapon; their damage was astounding] because they were under the impression that both SMN and BRD were considered “weak DPS”. After informing them that SMN is wiping the floor with just about every DPS job out there, and BRD is nothing to really scoff at, even if it’s near the bottom, they were absolutely shocked, because they had never heard of SMN or BRD being considered strong DPS jobs. This is just another example of you can’t always tell who is “weak” or “falling behind”, and who is “a god” in terms of DPS/performance without a tool showing you raw, numerical data.)

[Salted]

I don't think expecting people to hit higher than some ilvl320 tanks is elitist. Literally the kill time would have been at least 2 minutes faster every run with average level dps, thats 20 minutes wasted after 10 kills. I probably would have just wasted my time and tolerated it, but you can't expect everyone to waste their time carrying people who don't know their basic rotation or don't realize they need to press buttons (even wrong buttons) while running for mechanics. You don't need a parser to see that op never used flamethrower, big gun with flames coming out is pretty hard to miss which means no overheat for wildfires.
Also I've met more people in this game that have bigger elitist egos thinking their good at the game that don't parse than the same type who parse.

[HaroldSaxon]

Those should all be done with the consent of those involved, or names need to be hidden.

I didn't consent to you quoting my post. By your argument, you should have asked for consent.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

Well that was an interesting read...



My stance on parsers in general.
I was neutral on the issue, until I was swayed by the arguments of the anti parser crowd.

Their arguments lead me to be pro parser.





I have no FFlogs.
At least, not as of the last time I checked.

I just don't get around to doing stuff when it's relevant.
My sister and I haven't managed to get much time together to progress, so we haven't even started in on Stormblood yet.

[Tangster85]

The only people who are against logs, are in my limited experience, players that are garbage and don't want to have proof of it.
There was some feelcraft WHM earlier who "knew whos sucking because its obvious" short of a person dying 24/7 you can't know whos lacking without any data. You're saying the $ will dive in February 2018 its obvious to anyone - Oh yeah? What data have you got for this assumption?

Problem is people don't know how to use logs, they tell you a lot more than who does what DPS.

Why are you wiping? Look at deathlogs
Why did that tank just die? Check logs for shields/cooldowns
Why did the raid just die to that flare on o4s? Check logs where they were placed
Why is your DPS low? Check logs on management

Or my personal favorites;
Why the hell is that Scholar using Emergency Tactics, like, ever?
Why did that WHM cast 40 Cure 2 on o1s?
Why is that DRK casting 10 dark passenger on a raid boss? Or why did he use 4 Carve and Spit on a 9.30 fight? Better yet, why didnt he use Dark Arts for them?
WHY IS THAT SCHOLAR USING EMERGENCY TACTICS, LEGIT WHAT THE ACTUAL F