This is why this game should'nt get a parse

[HyoMinPark]

@Kakiko -- I appreciate the full response and the clarification. But I will say that the argument still holds as somewhat valid; if you aren't ashamed of your logs, why hide them at all? Here's why I think that:

Any person worth their salt who goes through logs will easily separate poor play from shoddy circumstances. I will use my V3S clear as an example--my overall DPS was abysmal, but I died three times. I was clipped twice by two people's Folio's (neither were my fault--one was the other BRD who ran into my same Library tile I had already been standing in, and did not move to adjust so I tried to scramble the last minute and couldn't make it; second was a tank and they actually ended up killing my friend on SAM, too later on--no big deal, we had a laugh about that one), and the third death was me screwing up Mindjack reapers because I got greedy (and because I will openly admit that I am awful at that mechanic). The comp also did not have a DRG, so as a BRD, I lose 300-400 DPS right there (it was actually double BRD, SAM, and I think NIN was the other DPS; maybe RDM, I would have to double-check). Anyone looking at that grey would see "Well, 3 deaths, two were clips from Folio, one they messed up, no DRG, definitely doesn't have anywhere near BiS for BRD, so that's why their damage was low". It wasn't even 3k.

Same thing for poor performers. I once had a MNK who used the following rotation: Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Rockbreaker. Every time. In V2S. And it was a farm group. Someone analyzing those logs can see: "Well, their damage is awful because they are using an AOE rotation on a single target and ignoring their other skills". Analysis of logs is key, and I say this the anyone who says people judge based off of just the percentile alone--there's more to it than just that ranking. Hence why you dig deeper. You can't do that if someone hides them; and when people do that, everyone automatically assumes they have something to hide, so it doesn't work out in their favor, in the end.

More research can also be done, such as looking at a player's gear. That's why I said OP should be pulling more than 3,500-4,000 DPS on a MCH. Because their MCH is 340--may not be BiS because no Genji body or Genji weapon, but the secondaries aren't weighed as much right now to cause a 1,000 DPS discrepancy.

Bottom line (because I feel like I'm rambling) is people have to dig deeper into those runs to see WHY damage was so low. Instead of just basing it off of a 19 median. Analyze the logs; look at the rotation, look at their gear, look at the comp (especially important for BRD/MCH because of their reliance on a DRG), and then make a judgement. However, I know that a lot of people don't dig deeper but take the number at face value.

As for the thread, it told both sides because of the log. If no one had the log to reference, we have just the OP's side, which blames the WAR for his supposed elitism, but mentions nothing about how the WAR was only being outDPS'd by a NIN who died once, and not a SAM, RDM, or MCH that also only died once (well, SAM died twice). It opens up for more discussion, because clearly there is room for improvement on the part of all three of those DPS. With no log, we only have that accursed WAR and their parser elitism.

But these are just my opinions.

[Jijifli]

I don't disagree that having people in a farm party who can pull their weight and competently complete the content isn't elitist. That wasn't even what I was calling elitist in my post you quoted. However, my counter to you would then be: why not join a static, or an fc, or a group of friends and farm, rather than rely on PF which can bring you people you find less desirable and not up to your standards (standards which are subjective to every player).

Because there aren't 7 people in my FC that are on who want to go farm it.

Because I don't have 7 friends on that want to go out and farm it.

Maybe the static isn't on for the farm because it's not schedule'd.

[Baalfrog]

They didn't complete the encounter, not until 3 DPS were kicked from the group. Which 'supposedly' was a rules violation according to SE. That's why its weird. Even though booting the DPS and getting better ones could potentially make the run a success.

If a tank dies to a tank buster because they didn't use a CD, they can be booted for it. No violation of any rules. If a DPS does too little damage and you use a parser to determine that (since its the only way to do so), and boot them for doing too little. Despite that being just as important and vital as a tank using a CD, its considered 'harassment'.

Of course I use quotes because its still hearsay to me, I've never seen an instance of someone being actioned for this personally.

They did, the log in question has a kill in it.

Also kicking people cause they are not good enough for your standards and such is not a rules violation, it falls under the "different playstyle" and is perfectly fine with the GMs. Like if im in a dungeon with 3 friends, and the rando we get is Timmy the Icemage, we are in the right to kick them if they don't stop being like that after being told to stop. That said, you don't need to say anything, but since GMs check the chat logs, you might want to say something as to why they are being kicked.

[PArcher]

And I hold no qualms about people with parsers getting blamed when you're not supposed to be doing it in the first place. SE's just allowing it because they know damn well they cant stop everyone, instead only threatening to drop the hammer if you act like an asshole with the information you collect through it

Even Yoshi-P has said that you can use parsers; just do not harass people with them.

[HyoMinPark]

Snip

What would you consider a MNK in a V2S farm that uses Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Rockbreaker, then? Bad player or "not 100% optimized"?

You seem to miss the point that a lot of people who parse do not demand 95th percentile play outside of anything but their own statics (if they are part of a hardcore static). You also missed the point that toxicity is not exclusive to parsing.

[Lazaruz]

Even Yoshi-P has said that you can use parsers; just do not harass people with them.

I would advise you to read that last part of my post again

SE's just allowing it because they know damn well they cant stop everyone, instead only threatening to drop the hammer if you act like an asshole with the information you collect through it

a.k.a you can parse. But harass people with the numbers and SE will take action

What would you consider a MNK in a V2S farm that uses Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Rockbreaker, then? Bad player or "not 100% optimized"?

If you cant argue without reaching for the extremes, I'm gonna end this discussion right here

[Jijifli]

Snip

Okay hold up here. You're saying we should not allow built in support Parsing, because there's a CHANCE someone will abuse it? Allow me to take this to the extreme then. Remove emotes, people can abuse them to flood your chat or harass you (Lala's can pat your butts/breasts.) Remove chat, there's a chance I can say something really really mean in it to someone, or someone could tell another to do suicide. Remove Materia, someone might get mad my bard has a Direct Hit instead of a Crit in 1 slot and harass me. Remove every attack that doesn't need a target, people can spam it and annoy another player. Remove the ability to name your character, someone might put a mean word.

Now you might respond with, "But you're taking that too far," but I'm not. All of these cases, you can fix the PERSON being the problem with reporting. So why is Parsing different? If your scared people might be mean with it in chat, removing chat would do the same thing, but you wouldn't like that because it removes the positives, right? Same for people that parse. They can take the positives. Rotation improving. Figuring out what people are doing to help others. Knowing who's doing level 45 damage in SHINRYU EX of all places and harming the run.

Tl;dr

There's more to toxic than just parsing someone...

[HyoMinPark]

If you cant argue without reaching for the extremes, I'm gonna end this discussion right here

Not an extreme; that is something I have actually seen. But how about these examples:
--A BRD that never uses Tactician or Refresh, even when asked by the healers for MP
--A BLM that never uses anything above a level 50 or 60 rotation
--An "Ice Mage"
--A DRG that won't use Heavy Thrust, or their Chaos Thrust combo
--A MNK that doesn't use Fists of Fire
--A SAM who doesn't manage Shifu or Jinpu buffs
--A RDM that refuses to help Raise
--A SMN that refuses to help Raise
--A SMN that never uses their DoTs, or has their pets on Sic
--A tank that won't use proper mitigation; ever
--A tank that cannot hold aggro while in their tank stance
--A healer that is careless with their MP, be it from overhealing or from too much DPSing
--A healer that won't heal

"Bad player" or "not 100% optimized"?


Your arguments are all about the potential for abuse. Anything and everything has a potential for abuse. Vote Kick features, Party Finder restrictions, Vote Abandon features. They can all be abused. Does that mean they should also be removed because the potential for abuse exists?

I reiterate again: people who parse, the majority do not expect 95th percentile play from people that aren't part of their hardcore static (if they are in one). They expect people to pull their weight, but they do not expect perfection. Perfection is unobtainable. And, again, toxiticty exists in everything; it isn't exclusive to parsers.

[HoodRat]

Secondly, while I personally don't have much to hide, I don't like the idea of someone just being able to search up my character and attempt a "GOTCHA! YOU SUCK!" post or something. (No, not saying that's all people do with logs or anything just...it’s an example I guess?). But yeah, the whole "Someone being able to look up your character and see every raid, trial, and bit of content you've done." concept really creeps me out and I don't like that, so I hide that stuff to keep some form of privacy. If I want to discuss my overall performance or my track record with people, I want it to be with people I trust and know aren't going to be asses or condescending about it. (I know, I repeat myself a lot but it helps get the points across.)

Fflogs doesn't automatically record everything you do, it has to be uploaded. So if "every raid, trial, and bit of content you've done" is uploaded, I'd say it's safe to assume you're the one uploading it. And I don't understand why you would upload everything you do if you don't like the idea of people seeing it.

it's still there in the log with no explanation of why my numbers were terrible or why maybe my rotation was shoddy. It's not that I have something to HIDE, it's just that you're only ever going to get one side of the story.

Fflogs shows a ton of information. People can see what abilities you used and in what order, how many times you used them, what buffs/debuffs you had, how long you spent standing idle, how many times you died, what you died to, when you died, and even how you moved around during the fight.

judging by the fact that I had FFlogs data of me uploaded without my concent

Don't flatter yourself, as someone said earlier, people don't go around intentionally uploading parses to make people look bad.

[jameseoakes]

You've proven to be super anti-parsing and anti FFLogs. You've hidden your logs as well, which screams that you don't want to be called out for being bad and want to just get carried.

Don't ever forget, you're playing a team game. The moment you join a party you need to pull your weight instead of harassing everyone by playing super suboptimally and looking to get carried.

"You don't pay my sub!" doesn't work the second you do any group content. Keep playing solo if you want to just be bad.

Those are some pretty big assumptions there and an unnecessarily aggressive post either way.