This is why this game should'nt get a parse

[HyoMinPark]

I have to strongly disagree with you, Adeacia, and here’s why (not trying to argue, but I want you to know why I disagree with your post and its points):

On the other hand, that information is something that I personally believe should never actually be seen by players for reasons I see here. Talking about having a certain dps amount, clipping cooldowns, and other fine details that bring people into wanting pretty much perfect play.

This is false. If you read a lot of the parser discussions that go on around here, you would see that a lot of people that want an in-game parser (or who already parse) do not expect 95th percentile play out of random players; I don’t even think they expect 75th percentile play out of them They expect for DPS to do more DPS than a tank, yes, but they do not expect perfection.

The OP is being singled out for their poor DPS because, as a 340 MCH with zero deaths in most of their previous Savage fights, they are pulling below average numbers compared to other MCHs at the same, or even a lower, ilvl; in the fight that is the main complaint of this thread, they were pulling less damage than the tanks. Sure, they died, but one death should not send a DPS below a tank in terms of outgoing damage; it usually takes 2~3 deaths. That, and because they came here looking for sympathy over supposed griefing via parsers that never actually happened (the WAR and AST from that party chimed in to say that there was no harassment over DPS or parsers).

That being said, if a group does not have a certain amount of collective DPS, they will hit enrage. How do players figure out how much rDPS is needed to clear a fight before enrage? With a parser. Because there is no other way to figure that out.

"But Adeacia, what about world first groups?" Yeah, what about them? You act as if they actually matter overall. People who take time off from work just to play this have other issues to think about.

I’m...not really clear on how your comment about world-first raiders comes into play here, but...what world first raiders do is entirely up to them. They enjoy raiding and progging 15~16 hours a day. If they choose to take time off from work or other real-life obligations to win a world-first race, then that’s what they want to do. But don’t say they don’t matter, since some of them are ones who make guides to help more casual/midcore raiders progress (e.g., Xeno), or guides to help with job optimization (e.g., Miyuri gives out a lot of wonderful information about BRD gameplay and optimization).

That being said, since this game does absolutely nothing to teach players a proper endgame or optimized rotation, players that want to push themselves have to turn to outside sources. They don’t have a choice. There’s no accurate way to analyze your performance outside of trial and error with a parser; that’s one way theorycrafters figure out the most optimized rotations and stat weights for certain jobs.

Yeah, the game has SSS, but SSS is not an accurate representation of DPS, because it doesn’t account for things like party buffs (or some self-buffs; I believe Dragon Sight is not accounted for in SSS dummy tests, but would need a DRG to confirm this since I don’t play the job at a Savage level) or mechanics, and the fight is based around a 3-minute target dummy. Not a good representation of an actual fight. A person may be able to clear the dummy, but may not be able to clear the fight.

Yes, dps checks / enrage is a thing but you shouldn't need this info to see where you may need work. If you need to squeeze every single possible point out of every player just to clear, then you think maybe you are a tad undergeared?

If you “have to squeeze out every point” from a player in order to clear a piece of content, then that player is not ready for said content. And it doesn’t even have anything to do with their gear, really (Omega Savage is clearable without full i340). It could be raid awareness (do they die a lot to failed mechanics?), rotation (are they using an old HW rotation, or a suboptimal one that ignores core aspects of the job?), anything really. A player can be i340 and have no idea how to actually play the job they’re rolling (I ran into such a player today in my Expert Roulette—a BRD that used their songs maybe 5 times the entirety of Skalla, and they have cleared V3S).

When I was doing Lakshmi EX (a stupidly easy fight, as we all know) when it just came out, the party I was in kept hitting enrage. It didn't take a parser to figure out who was lagging behind on dps. To fix it, I simply went to town with my own dps (I'm a healer) every chance I got and we cleared from then on. Now healers should not be required to dps at all to make up for lack of dps from actual dps, but I like doing it and wanted to actually start getting clears.

But, could you point out which DPS was specifically lacking? With no numbers to go off of, how would you know which DPS you had to pick up the slack on as a healer to clear? You can’t really unless it’s glaringly obvious. Which brings me to my next point:

To summarize, in my experience (even in savage) it's pretty clear who is lagging and what they need to work on making a parser not needed to begin with.

Not always. Take a ShinEx group I was in. We had such low DPS that we were seeing a second Tidal Wave in first phase. The DPS were: me on RDM (i339), a MCH (in mostly 340 with some 330 pieces), a MNK (crafted 320), and I think the other was a DRG or SAM...another melee DPS (mostly in 330~340). At first glance, who do you think would have such low DPS that we were seeing a second Tidal Wave in first phase? Just going off of things like gear and weapons?

Most people would probably assume the MNK in the crafted 320 gear, but that is incorrect. It was actually the MCH. The MCH was doing less damage than our tanks with no deaths. The MNK had to die twice for them to finally dip below the MCH, and the only reason they died was due to healer neglect (they were targeted for Earth Breath and died to the Sludge DoT, and then just weren’t topped off enough after being raised and died to Ice Storm).

Bottom line is, you can’t always tell who is lagging behind without a parser unless it’s something glaringly obvious, like a BRD that doesn’t use their songs (lack of the critical up buff is the telltale sign there) or a caster where you can actively watch their cast bar to see what they’re doing. To imply that a parser isn’t needed to see performance is incorrect.

(As an aside to this post, another Expert Roulette I was doing, we had a WAR that was just astounded that the DPS was so high on the trash packs [DPS was me on BRD and a random SMN who was just killing it, even with an i320 weapon; their damage was astounding] because they were under the impression that both SMN and BRD were considered “weak DPS”. After informing them that SMN is wiping the floor with just about every DPS job out there, and BRD is nothing to really scoff at, even if it’s near the bottom, they were absolutely shocked, because they had never heard of SMN or BRD being considered strong DPS jobs. This is just another example of you can’t always tell who is “weak” or “falling behind”, and who is “a god” in terms of DPS/performance without a tool showing you raw, numerical data.)

[Salted]

I don't think expecting people to hit higher than some ilvl320 tanks is elitist. Literally the kill time would have been at least 2 minutes faster every run with average level dps, thats 20 minutes wasted after 10 kills. I probably would have just wasted my time and tolerated it, but you can't expect everyone to waste their time carrying people who don't know their basic rotation or don't realize they need to press buttons (even wrong buttons) while running for mechanics. You don't need a parser to see that op never used flamethrower, big gun with flames coming out is pretty hard to miss which means no overheat for wildfires.
Also I've met more people in this game that have bigger elitist egos thinking their good at the game that don't parse than the same type who parse.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

Well that was an interesting read...



My stance on parsers in general.
I was neutral on the issue, until I was swayed by the arguments of the anti parser crowd.

Their arguments lead me to be pro parser.





I have no FFlogs.
At least, not as of the last time I checked.

I just don't get around to doing stuff when it's relevant.
My sister and I haven't managed to get much time together to progress, so we haven't even started in on Stormblood yet.

[Tangster85]

The only people who are against logs, are in my limited experience, players that are garbage and don't want to have proof of it.
There was some feelcraft WHM earlier who "knew whos sucking because its obvious" short of a person dying 24/7 you can't know whos lacking without any data. You're saying the $ will dive in February 2018 its obvious to anyone - Oh yeah? What data have you got for this assumption?

Problem is people don't know how to use logs, they tell you a lot more than who does what DPS.

Why are you wiping? Look at deathlogs
Why did that tank just die? Check logs for shields/cooldowns
Why did the raid just die to that flare on o4s? Check logs where they were placed
Why is your DPS low? Check logs on management

Or my personal favorites;
Why the hell is that Scholar using Emergency Tactics, like, ever?
Why did that WHM cast 40 Cure 2 on o1s?
Why is that DRK casting 10 dark passenger on a raid boss? Or why did he use 4 Carve and Spit on a 9.30 fight? Better yet, why didnt he use Dark Arts for them?
WHY IS THAT SCHOLAR USING EMERGENCY TACTICS, LEGIT WHAT THE ACTUAL F

[Alien_Gamer]

The only people who are against logs, are in my limited experience, players that are garbage and don't want to have proof of it.

This statement is garbage in and of itself; I'm not a great player, I'm not a bad player, just average and I don't need logs to prove that to me. You won't hurt my feelings by saying I'm not good because its true. But there are many reasons to dislike logs outside of a fragile ego such as it seems to bring out the more toxic individuals and give them another bat to use against other people. I've never played a game where parsers improved my experience playing it and I've played many where it made it worse. That is why I don't want it; because my experience tells me it will make this game worse.

But that is my opinion and everyone else is welcome to theirs. I know there are people that won't abuse parsers and I know parsers don't have an exclusive hold on the asshats in the game. It doesn't change that I don't want them in the game.

[Sebazy]

I'm not a bad player, just average and I don't need logs to prove that to me. You won't hurt my feelings by saying I'm not good because its true.

It's poorly worded (An unfortunate trend that arguably spawned this thread in the first place), I'll definitely give you that. But there's definitely truth in there as well.

Look at it this way, if you were to embrace the data that parsers and logs offer, do you not think you could use that to become more than just 'average'?

I put a power meter on my pushbike, it doesn't automatically make me 3 mph faster everywhere, but by taking the time to learn how to understand and apply the numbers it's telling me, it can arguably do even more. This is what logs are really about.

But there are many reasons to dislike logs outside of a fragile ego such as it seems to bring out the more toxic individuals and give them another bat to use against other people.

And yet, the point that gets missed and brushed over again and again here, is that for every petulant child with a parse window (and likely still going to be an petulant child without said parse window) that's needlessly kicking up a fuss, there's an order of magnitude more quietly getting on with their thing because they just don't care. It's bordering on a discriminatory stance. Bigoted and hopelessly out of touch with reality imho.

[Alien_Gamer]

But there's definitely truth in there as well...Bigoted and hopelessly out of touch with reality imho.

You speak of wording things poorly and then say that? I responded to one thing, that someone said the ONLY people who were against logs were those that didn't want to be shown they were bad. I refuted that with an example of other reasons meaning there is not ONLY one type of person against it.

I also flat out state I know there are people that won't abuse it and those that will. I'm accepting that other people have different views. I'm also accepting that my own argument is purely from my experience, is anecdotal, and not something that is meant to sway other people that like parsers.

Edit:
Dualgunner is right, I misread that statement.

[Sebazy]

So who's the bigot? The one that accepts others like parsers or the one that can't accept that others don't?

To requote myself in full:

And yet, the point that gets missed and brushed over again and again here, is that for every petulant child with a parse window (and likely still going to be an petulant child without said parse window) that's needlessly kicking up a fuss, there's an order of magnitude more quietly getting on with their thing because they just don't care. It's bordering on a discriminatory stance. Bigoted and hopelessly out of touch with reality imho.

Dualgunner beat me to it, but aye, sorry if it came across as me calling you bigoted. That wasn't my intention <3

Rather, I'm referring to the view point that parsers make people toxic across the board, or at least in far far greater numbers than reality.

A better (and less offensive!) way to put my point forward might be as such:

The majority of parser harassment incidents are either here-say (My mate's brother's partner was in a party where someone got called out in Gordias!) or misunderstandings (Aka this thread and my Rabanastre troll). I'm not denying that parser based harassment doesn't exist, but rather that it's not actually all that common, if it was, you can guarantee this thread would be filled to the brim with screenshots of it happening.

On the flipside, I'd like to put this link out there. Note the sheer volume of uploads each and every day. I'd struggle to scrape together a handful of verified incidents where parser data was used maliciously, yet it takes me 30 seconds show literally thousands of occasions where it wasn't, on a daily basis no less.

Don't get me wrong, I love data and it's one of my favourite aspects of progression time, but I do agree with you in many respects. Thus my stance that simply incorporating the 3rd party parser into the game as is would be a mistake. The community isn't ready for that. If we ever do get one, it should be self only and absolutely discrete at least until the populace as a whole warms up to it.

[KaivaC]

I've never played a game where parsers improved my experience playing it and I've played many where it made it worse. That is why I don't want it; because my experience tells me it will make this game worse.

How would parsers make your experience worse? Surely, the whole point of parsing, just from the perspective that it is simply a tool, is to figure out how to improve?

[Alien_Gamer]

How would parsers make your experience worse? Surely, the whole point of parsing, just from the perspective that it is simply a tool, is to figure out how to improve?

Easily. If SE makes parsers official then they are no longer against TOS and grounds to ban someone. It removes a very powerful deterrent to people bringing out parsers to harass others. It makes my game worse by having to put up with those people.

Will everyone do it? Absolutely not. I don't pretend otherwise. However I've seen it happen enough that I don't believe it won't be a common occurrence in this game.

You miss the point again and trying to make people improve doesnt make people toxic. What is toxic to me is I go in a farm, expect people to know how to do dps and mechanics but far too many players fails that, so why are you going to be a-hole and waste 7 peoples time? Because you had fun? Think a little bit what you said there. There are far too many players who leech of others and how is that not toxic at all? Or is it because you fell for their ''I have fun, damn you all If i can't, because it doesnt matter if we wipe or not as long I HAVE FUN''.

You're attributing words where they don't exist. I have nothing against helping people improve. I also don't go into content without preparing myself for it before hand; that means making sure I meet the minimum requirements of the job and duty including any dps checks BEFORE I even enter. The only variable when I enter should be learning the mechanics. I don't need a parser for any of that. Clearly you have some issues with other peoples DPS but you're aiming that wrath at the wrong person.

You don’t need parsers to bring out toxicity.

You're absolutely right, you don't and there is plenty of toxicity everywhere without it. As far as i'm aware there's no rigorous studies on the social dynamics of parsers and toxicity to point to, literally all I have is my experience and the behavior I've witnessed. That is toxicity grows when parsers are allowed in the game.

I also don't disagree that what I said about my experience is purely ancedotal and I wasn't trying to state it as anything else. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that. My experience with parsers is the reason I don't like them, you like them because youve had good experience with them; its personal experience, not an absolute and thats all it should be taken as.

Again, my point was there is more than one reason to dislike parsers. My point was not that the game should revolve around my experiences.