SE when are you going to add new PVP actions?

[kirby200]

There was talk about this and I would really like this to happen, I find most classes are so limited in abilities it really has taken the 'fun' out of pvp for me (I was never for or against the PVP changes in stormblood).
Just a few examples I miss; Tar pit, Push back, Wither this doesn't mean I want to see more CC but I would like to see more choices.
I can't even play DRK which I loved before stormblood (even though it had many issues) because everytime I use souleater combo I feel like im banging my head against a wall because it is that boring! Bring back choice! Either souleater heals or use Delirium.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

To facilitate this: Return Sprint as a universal action. The size and scale of maps, as well as the general strategies players commonly utilize do not lend well to having sprinting as an optional ability. That effectively frees up a PvP action slot for other skills.

[Stormfur]

Yes! Sprint should not be an either/or option.

I miss bard and machinist's ability to restore MP/TP. I feel helpless when the healer says their MP is at 1% and there's nothing I can do. Let us support our teammates the way we were meant to!

[saucyshortcake]

To facilitate this: Return Sprint as a universal action. The size and scale of maps, as well as the general strategies players commonly utilize do not lend well to having sprinting as an optional ability. That effectively frees up a PvP action slot for other skills.

They probably should. Does anyone NOT take sprint? It's way too important.

Then again, I also don't think tanks should be allowed to take Recuperate, but that's just me.

[snipski]

ugh if healers get sprint they will be even more unkillable no this is a bad idea

[Vejjiegirl]

I actually think they should fix some pvp actions that are in the skill list.
Pvp actions that become big necessities could be moved into the toolkit of the player (so for example all healers having muse as a default)

Also, additional actions and traits are the same on every job but are useless, like Enliven on healers/Casters(not counting RDM) could be replaced with something else for roles that do not use MP/TP[I]


For example they could put the removed skill "Deorbit" there in place of Enliven for healers.
(note deorbit is just an example I really hate deorbit and couldn't think of anything at the time)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I'd like to again point out that PvP skills were far more tailored to the jobs/roles back in 3.x PvP. And the counter to sprinting healers was of course, cc, which I still say every job should have some form of, just like they did before. A large reason melees don't do so well currently, aside from differences of player skill, is the sudden removal of cc skills from all but Ninja. I'm not sure why anyone felt it necessary to both change how cc skills worked (via immediate resistance after the effect wears off), then just remove them from some jobs altogether anyways, but it's done more harm than good.

[Kai_Lee]

Player base: we want more skills

SE: maybe take away 1-2 skills and limited every job to 7 buttons to push

Next season will see changes?

[Zojha]

And the counter to sprinting healers was of course, cc, which I still say every job should have some form of, just like they did before.

The "counter" to everything is CC, because CC prevents you from acting to various degrees.

Nitpick rant:

And the irony is that it doesn't actually counter anything - Counters are only effective if the enemy is doing the action you intend to counter, because it is a response to an action by definition. A counter-attack is only effective if the enemy strikes you in the first place, otherwise it does nothing. You cannot counter a blow that hasn't been made. And CC is not a response to anything, it simply shuts down action proactively.

The closest thing to a sprint counter you had in the old system was Weapon Throw - First a melee ability, then a tank ability. It would have been a true counter if it had been a guaranteed slow if a sprint effect was removed and not at all otherwise. That's what a counter typically does - You use an action of an enemy to your advantage, in this case you'd use the fact the enemy boosted his speed to your advantage by turning it into a slow, something you couldn't have done if he hadn't sprinted in the first place. And that would be a retroactive counter that doesn't leave the enemy any choice. More common in games are proactive counters that do leave the enemy a choice.

A typical healing counter would be a debuff that causes all incoming healing to damage the person instead for a brief while. Divinity calls it "Decaying Touch". A classic movement counter is the Ultimate of Bloodseeker from DotA - Rupture. It deals damage to you based on the distance you travel while it's active. And a classic burst counter is a skill that blocks all damage and diverts it back to the attacker for a brief while. Or take WoW - Unstable Affliction, a dispel counter DoT that deals damage to and silences the one who happens to dispel it.

Counters often end up leaving you in lose-lose situations in team games, because even though you can commonly identify the counter and simply not do the action it counters for the duration, that can leave you in just as bad a position as if you had done it. CC is a lot more upfront and honest about that - It doesn't even give you that choice.

Similarly, the power of CC directly derives from the actions it prevents, while the power of counters can be independent of that. For example, you can devise a debuff that lasts two hours, persists through death and will instantly cause the player's team to lose should the afflicted player change his shoes. That's a powerful, game-winning counter to changing shoes, but which shoes you wear is absolutely irrelevant to the outcome of the game. The counter is extremely powerful but the action it counters is wholly powerless. On the other hand, a CC that prevents you from changing your shoes is simply useless, because which shoes you wear doesn't matter so the fact you can't change them does neither.

CC thus can be used to approximate power - The more valuable a CC, the more powerful the action it prevents. And I'd be wary of everything that unconditionally requires CC to be dealt with, because there is a mighty good chance you're simply dealing with something broken. Movement is not among that - Gap closers are a thing.

That aside, honestly, the additional skills are generally underwhelming. Even if you were to add Bolt to everyone, what else would you pick? It's 2 out of 7 right now, 2 out of 6 then and you can safely ignore Enliven/Muse depending on your job because few of them use both, TP and Mana, so you can detract another one right there, completely disregarding that Enliven is underwhelming all by itself.

A better start here would be introducing more job actions, which SE seems to be averse to. I can understand why 3 and a half hotbars might be a bit much, but 11 skills are IMO a bit too few if the skills are all generic point&click. In MOBAs, skillshots are a common thing and a dimension of mastery that's nigh on missing entirely here, which has to be compensated 'somehow', if only with more skills.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

11 is too few, but the same kit we use everywhere, including PvP once before is apparently "too many".

As for counterplay, it's important to note that nothing is guaranteed. It wasn't even back then. But the more we see these threads pop up, the more the old system really is validated by the deficiencies of this new one. Imagine if instead of Enliven arbitrarily being available to healers, something like Sacred Prism or Retrogradiation was instead? Or if tanks got Push Back once more? Imagine melees got Weapon Throw once more? How much would Weapon Throw help the struggling, cc-less melees now? That's really what needs to be looked at. The old system actually considered each job's individuality and what would be most useful to them for PvP actions (for the most part. There were a few mulligans).