How would you make RDM more complex?

[Karshan]

I think part of the problem is I might be using complexity when I mean how to make the job feel more rewarding, which may not be an issue to some, but it seems like the payoff for putting in extra effort feels really low. If that makes sense at all. I don't mean to assume that all RDMs feel the same way either, considering how few people use the forums in most games it's hard to tell what the consensus is.

Dw you made your point clear and it is making sense.

Where I agree with you is that there is not much room of effort on RDM to go beyond, because the basic core is really close to optimal rotation. So I see how that feels unrewarding because most of the gains are from team sync and not personnal improvment.

What people are worried about is that, if they were to change that, there is a chance that to avoid power creep, devs could add mechanics that end up also lowering the floor rather than just raise the ceiling, leaving RDM who don't want to spend hours on a dummy with poorer DPS (or a wider gap).

I really can understand that you'd like the ceiling changed a bit and mostly you want new ways to attein it (and personnal ways not just party synergy). But narrowing the gap is the goal they had on SB and you can clearly see the new classes were designed with that in mind.

What I'm looking for, and I'd like that for every class, is if the best of the best do 5600 DPS, the ones who make good efforts do 5000, then just playing the basic core (correctly, but just basic) would still give you 4400ish DPS. RDM has that, making progress and new fights really satisfying because you can enjoy them and not just be focused on your cockpit like BRD or SMN. Doing just the core on SMN for instance doesn't cut it. And you said you put SMN aside because of the "things to track" bloat. Or maybe I read wrong.

But if RDM complexification goes beyond your control, what are you gonna do ?

I can tell you from experience for SMN : they increased the ceiling, the skill gap is huge, and i really don't like being less effective with it than I was in HS. I tackle 2 or 3 dummies everyday, but since I've been playing for 2 years, I shouldn't have to do that. So I'm kinda pissed about it. And I don't really oppose to it for RDM, but I don't wish it on them, leaving many average Red mages sad for the sake of optimization of complexity or depth.

The way it is now I understand that having the same amount of effort required to go from 4400 to 5000 on RDM than say 3800 to 5300 on SMN, feels much more rewarding on SMN (or rather, unstatisfying on RDM). Now if they can make it so that doing the 4400 is simple, 5000 complex and 5600 hellish, but it would be the same for every class, it still would feel rewarding to be 5000+.

[Neela]

And I didn't "attack." Get over yourself. I stated an opinion, and you called me out. Thus dragging out the conversation to this point, despite you "not wanting a discussion." Simple as that.

Especially in a thread where one person wants to control the flow of the discussion like that, or suppress dissenting viewpoints. "Don't change RDM Blm does not need a res," is every bit as important as your asinine suggestions in the OP.

this sounds so fck familiar, right Llugen? ;'3

@topic the least complicated way to give them a kind of variety without loosing the base-simplicity are alternative melee-combos or combo-finisher - leaving the base- & proc mechanic as it is. Imo : /

[Maero]

I am not sure tbh.
Having mained blm for years the simplicity of Red Mage is relaxing, lol
However i do think it needs to be more complex and move away from the role as just a "progression" dps, there is no reason why it could not be made more complex and do more damage.
Changes of course would need to be made to embolden and veraise but more spells/attacks would be very welcome along with more options for aoe. Enchanted moulinet and scatter is meh.
I would also love to have more spells/attacks and not dots (that belongs to smn) but perhaps something that adds status ailments like some that cause slow, etc...
Of course just adding more spells/attacks does not necesarily make a job more complex

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Personally, I don't like when proper performance comes down to esoteric memorization and bursts of precise activity between banal filler time, and it's far from me to wish that on RDM in any way. I want a Red Mage that still feels very capable when played at a relaxed style, but has a lot going on not just hidden away under the hood, but also readily viewable to the player, from which to find internal mechanical enjoyment from choices made. At present, RDM feels like it has precisely one choice at optimal play -- whether to open with Verthunder or Veraero.

While most jobs similarly boil down to an embarrassingly linear and scripted form of play, downtime at least impacts more than a single alignment (two, I suppose, if melee range is denied, preventing CaC and dE from being spent before Manafication, while spells are still possible) and can at least somewhat allow the player to reshape their actions accordingly, and most other jobs at least have a few different openers possible that have distinct rotational effects down the line while remaining equally or almost equally optimal in any given situation (in addition to a couple more fight-specific openers). RDM has none of that, making everything feel very same-y.

And that's not even a biggest problem; it's just the fact that the entire playstyle between burns feels like 1-2-1-3-4-2-5-3-1-6 back and forth, back and forth, augments the same as initials, and sift through oGCDs mostly as they come. It doesn't really seem to "move" through its rotations even in the shallow sense of combo chains or Astral/Umbral stages or reDoTs or DWT stages, etc., etc. It just all feels so same-y to me.

[TarynH]

this sounds so fck familiar, right Llugen? ;'3

Who's Llugen, and do you think about them often?

[Kabooa]

@Kabooa I legitimately hadn't thought about consuming mana for support buffs, and I like the idea. I am a little unclear on how the Impact change would work.

Did not see this edit.

Effectively, the Impact suggested in my post way back there has it working like this.

If Red Mage started a fight with VerAero -> VerThunder, then the spell prior to casting Impact is 'VerThunder'.

Impact would then generate black mana and provide the Black Mana generation buff.

If the Red Mage string was Jolt -> VerAero, Melee Combo into VerHoly, then the last spell used is 'VerHoly', and Impact would give its effect based on that.

The various effects were spitballed, and in the grand scheme of things, a few other knobs and levers would need to be turned and pulled were such a thing to come into play.

[Jukebox12]

I am pretty sure that if white mage cannot do water damage spells red mage wouldn't.

[Dualgunner]

I am pretty sure that if white mage cannot do water damage spells red mage wouldn't.

Fluid Aura.

[Ceallach]

So would the MO here be to do Scatter->Scatter then Verblizzard->Verwater (or Vice Versa) until you had to return to Scatter->Scatter? I like the suggestion it just seems like making it also operate off of Enhanced Scatter would require a very fast reaction time to use Scatter->Verwater/Verblizzard or Verblizzard->Verwater. I want to clarify that my tone here is purely inquiring, I feel like I'm coming off snarky.

OH I REMEMBER YOU YOU'RE THAT ONE GUY

Don't worry, bro, I got you.

The idea here would be fast reaction time to try to use Enhanced Scatter for Verwater or Verblizzard, so you'd ideally go Scatter/Verwater, Scatter/Verblizzard, or Verblizzard/Verwater. I think I made Verwater too strong, honestly, but this is the basic idea.

But does this actually increase complexity in any way? Granted I'd need to know what Verblizzard's actual damage and effect on the first two targets are, but without significant situational variance this seems like more of the braindead categoricals (more a matter of bloat than options) scorned on the first page.

The effect on the first two targets is literally everything except for the damage decrease. I didn't want the area attack rotation to be abused against raid bosses. ^^;

I thought SE's stated direction was to try and make the jobs less complex. This seems to be going against that idea of simplification.

Yes, but not all players agree with that stance.

[popotaro]

Tbh I would not. Though I'd like to have more impressive graphic FX, as I find those really lackluster..