SE: if it aint broke, dont fix it (War)

[Kabooa]

I think that one of the problems that SE is running into is that they tend to interpret player feedback very literally.

This thread is correct. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But it's not entirely the devs' fault. Be careful what you wish for.

!@#% yeah, Black mage res incoming.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I'm going to take it at face value that warrior's difficulty is set too high for what it does. The thing is directly raising Fell cleave damage isn't going to make the class easier, on the contrary it would make it more punishing. Imagine losing an 800 potency Fell Cleave as compared to missing a 500 potency Fell Cleave.

There is a bit of difference between trying to fit 6 to 7 Fell Cleaves into 8 to 10 gcds and fitting 3 to 4 Fell Cleaves into 8 to 10 gcds.

Lets say Inner Release is changed increases damage dealt by gauge actions and doubles weaponskill BG generation instead of halving BG costs. This would mean that the basic 60s dps rotation would stay the mostly the same (every other burst phase would just be missing Inner Release and a Fell Cleave) instead of having 2 different burst phases in a 120s rotation.

[Chrono_Rising]

There is a bit of difference between trying to fit 6 to 7 Fell Cleaves into 8 to 10 gcds and fitting 3 to 4 Fell Cleaves into 8 to 10 gcds.

Lets say Inner Release is changed increases damage dealt by gauge actions and doubles weaponskill BG generation instead of halving BG costs. This would mean that the basic 60s dps rotation would stay the mostly the same (every other burst phase would just be missing Inner Release and a Fell Cleave) instead of having 2 different burst phases in a 120s rotation.

Exactly. You would change inner release rather than directly buffing Fell Cleave. I feel like making Inner Release another damage buff would be too similar to berserk,

[whiskeybravo]

I don't see how that would work and be equivalent.

Current target is 6 fell cleaves + 1 Upheaval + 2 Onslaughts in 8 GCDs, this only leaves 2 GCDs for building gauge

Proposal to increase gauge generation instead of halving costs messes up that flow. Down to 10 gauge after FC+Inf+FC+Up+On, then you use preloaded Maim/Path for 60 gauge which leaves 20 after a FC, that's 5 GCDs out of 8. You need one of those next GCDs for Heavy Swing which generates no gauge, which means you can not use a 4th FC in the 8 GCD window (20+20 = 40, because the last GCD is for FC). The only way I can see to resolve that is have Heavy Swing generate 10 gauge so you can get the last FC and end at 0 gauge. I think it would be problematic to fit in the extra onslaught.

Unless I'm missing something (probably) I don't really see that as a viable solution. Additionally, would you not have to significantly increase the damage from a single FC to make up for the fact you are replacing 2 or 3 500 potency attacks with 2 or 3 150-270 potency attacks? (ties back into the "Imagine losing an 800 potency Fell Cleave as compared to missing a 500 potency Fell Cleave.")

[Shurrikhan]

actually i was more so thinking of shake if off, and its uptime.

while it would be stupid to buff it further, i can only think the next content is going to be built around that.

Were that the case, then DRK would only be further screwed by comparison. Shake It Off already arguably outperforms Divine Veil.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I don't see how that would work and be equivalent.

Current target is 6 fell cleaves + 1 Upheaval + 2 Onslaughts in 8 GCDs, this only leaves 2 GCDs for building gauge.

The current target is kinda the problem. It is trying to cram as much BG expenditure into 8 or 9 gcds as it can and this ends up making the burst very tight and ridged. Any lost gcds will lead to lost FCs. My suggestion is mostly focused on making it more flexible.

Proposal to increase gauge generation instead of halving costs messes up that flow. Down to 10 gauge after FC+Inf+FC+Up+On, then you use preloaded Maim/Path for 60 gauge which leaves 20 after a FC, that's 5 GCDs out of 8. You need one of those next GCDs for Heavy Swing which generates no gauge, which means you can not use a 4th FC in the 8 GCD window (20+20 = 40, because the last GCD is for FC). The only way I can see to resolve that is have Heavy Swing generate 10 gauge so you can get the last FC and end at 0 gauge. I think it would be problematic to fit in the extra onslaught.

Squeezing in the Onslaughts (primarily intended as a utility action) is where your problem is coming from.

I believe the rotation in my suggestion would end up something like this:

Heavy Swing (Berserk + Inner Release) -> Fell Cleave (Infuriate) -> Fell Cleave -> Maim (Upheaval) -> Fell Cleave -> Storm's Path -> Heavy Swing -> Maim -> Fell Cleave -> Storm's Path end at 30 BG at 8 gcds and 50 BG at 9 gcds.

You only really need 4 gcds to get in the majority of the burst's potency which would make being interrupted during it less punishing.

Unless I'm missing something (probably) I don't really see that as a viable solution. Additionally, would you not have to significantly increase the damage from a single FC to make up for the fact you are replacing 2 or 3 500 potency attacks with 2 or 3 150-270 potency attacks? (ties back into the "Imagine losing an 800 potency Fell Cleave as compared to missing a 500 potency Fell Cleave.")

The Fell Cleaves would only need to be about 800 potency and it would be much harder to lose them. In a 8 gcd burst you would be more likely to lose a 270 potency Storm's Path than an 800 potency Fell Cleave.

[SilentVoice]

snip

so much talk about damage and i think instead of adding up more and more of it would be best to review the general design of fights. every person in this game is so focused on dps output, no matter what their role, it's the only thing that untimately matters in the end. the whole idea of tanks powering up with STR\DH, etc. stats seems perverted, just as i see healers overmelding into DH, because again, DPS...

[Shurrikhan]

so much talk about damage and i think instead of adding up more and more of it would be best to review the general design of fights. every person in this game is so focused on dps output, no matter what their role, it's the only thing that untimately matters in the end. the whole idea of tanks powering up with STR\DH, etc. stats seems perverted, just as i see healers overmelding into DH, because again, DPS...

Why wouldn't that be the case, though?

This would only be a problem if direct damage potential always outweighed indirect, but make no mistake — every defensive CD, every bit of utility, merely amounts to DPS. That's never not going to be the case until a fight is won by something other than damage dealt.

[whiskeybravo]

The current target is kinda the problem. It is trying to cram as much BG expenditure into 8 or 9 gcds as it can and this ends up making the burst very tight and ridged. Any lost gcds will lead to lost FCs. My suggestion is mostly focused on making it more flexible.

I just meant from a potency standpoint, that's the target. Trying to find an optimal rotation under this consideration is tough lol, but I tried.

The suggested rotation would end at either 10 gauge or 50 gauge, in either case it would prevent you from using a final FC under the current buff times. The 8th GCD is that last FC in your chain, so by the 9th GCD you're only sitting at 10 gauge (so you can't execute path to get one more buffed FC). You'd actually only need 4x 650 pot FCs to match the current potency (according to my shoddy math skills), but there are a lot of GCDs consumed restoring gauge in this scenario and it seems kind of weird to have leftover gauge (unless that's a goal so we could still do "something" after a burst window)

Overall, I don't really see much distinction as you are still trying to fit x amount of GCDs in y amount of time. And increasing the potency that much does make missing one more impactful than in the current situation. But obviously if you missed a heavy swing instead of a FC due to mechanic timings or whatever, then it does favor the proposed change.

As it stands, at least the burst window right now is wrapped up in a nice little package if executed correctly (no leftover buff time/gauge). This example doesn't really accomplish that aspect of it, though some of the buff timings could be adjusted to accommodate it I think.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't see how that would work and be equivalent.

Current target is 6 fell cleaves + 1 Upheaval + 2 Onslaughts in 8 GCDs, this only leaves 2 GCDs for building gauge

Proposal to increase gauge generation instead of halving costs messes up that flow. Down to 10 gauge after FC+Inf+FC+Up+On, then you use preloaded Maim/Path for 60 gauge which leaves 20 after a FC, that's 5 GCDs out of 8. You need one of those next GCDs for Heavy Swing which generates no gauge, which means you can not use a 4th FC in the 8 GCD window (20+20 = 40, because the last GCD is for FC). The only way I can see to resolve that is have Heavy Swing generate 10 gauge so you can get the last FC and end at 0 gauge. I think it would be problematic to fit in the extra onslaught.

Unless I'm missing something (probably) I don't really see that as a viable solution. Additionally, would you not have to significantly increase the damage from a single FC to make up for the fact you are replacing 2 or 3 500 potency attacks with 2 or 3 150-270 potency attacks? (ties back into the "Imagine losing an 800 potency Fell Cleave as compared to missing a 500 potency Fell Cleave.")

In itself, it certainly wouldn't be able to hold a candle to the current IR. However, it's not the only variable manipulable without drastically overpowering previous levels. The Enhanced Infuriate trait can also be part of the equation. Moreover, we can manipulate duration or indirect potency through Attack Speed.

Personally, though, Warrior's issue of relatively unreliable DPS stems more from the fact that its DPS isn't being treated as a form of utility. Divine Veil doesn't always pan out. Cover is situational. The Blackest Night, even if it had a stronger ally-transferable effect, would be situational. Why can't Inner Release be considered in the same light, balanced around imperfect use? While I'd certainly prefer to see Inner Release's impact softened, that wouldn't change the fact that the surrounding kit would then feel undertuned (especially prior to the strange decision to make Shake It Off, of all things, into an arguably better Divine Veil). Had their base damage simply been high enough to begin with, as to make Warriors a situationally superior choice in the same way a Paladin might be, without feeling deflated when unable to make full use of that extra skill, I don't think Shake it Off's redundancy would have ever been necessary.