SE: if it aint broke, dont fix it (War)

[Tegernako]

Warrior the only job where if you ask for anything at all you get a horde of people saying you shouldn't because of reasons.

*edit, reading other threads. lol at the hostility towards WAR players. Bunch of hypocrites imo. Never saw these people say a word when 4.0 and that version of WAR was a thing, never spoke up for tank balance for them then, only "they had it coming" or "they had their time to shine" or "it's perfectly fine".

Only tank that ever gets argued against for any kind of change is WAR. Anything at all is an insult and demands multiple posts saying this must not happen! SMH.

[whiskeybravo]

Warrior the only job where if you ask for anything at all you get a horde of people saying you shouldn't because of reasons.

I mean, on one hand the War buffs only exasperated the issues with DRK. Whether the buffs were good/bad/needed/not needed is a different topic, the fact is they happened. And by happening they put DRK in an objectively worse spot. It's a bit of a slap in the face when War get's buffed/fixed almost immediately yet DRK's have been illustrating their probs for months, only to see - yet again - War will be getting "usability" adjustments.

So, IMO the hostility is understandable, if not outright warranted, given the way the devs have seemingly handled the situation. What else do DRK have to do to get noticed?

Now I don't necessarily think taking it out on other Wars is a good use of their time or energy, but as far as I can see - the gloves are off. Don't be standing in the way when DRKs start swinging

[Tegernako]

I mean, on one hand the War buffs only exasperated the issues with DRK. Whether the buffs were good/bad/needed/not needed is a different topic, the fact is they happened. And by happening they put DRK in an objectively worse spot. It's a bit of a slap in the face when War get's buffed/fixed almost immediately yet DRK's have been illustrating their probs for months, only to see - yet again - War will be getting "usability" adjustments.

So, IMO the hostility is understandable, if not outright warranted, given the way the devs have seemingly handled the situation. What else do DRK have to do to get noticed?

Now I don't necessarily think taking it out on other Wars is a good use of their time or energy, but as far as I can see - the gloves are off. Don't be standing in the way when DRKs start swinging

I've always liked you. This is exactly why.

[Chrono_Rising]

Warrior the only job where if you ask for anything at all you get a horde of people saying you shouldn't because of reasons.

*edit, reading other threads. lol at the hostility towards WAR players. Bunch of hypocrites imo. Never saw these people say a word when 4.0 and that version of WAR was a thing, never spoke up for tank balance for them then, only "they had it coming" or "they had their time to shine" or "it's perfectly fine".

Warrior has issues still. I think it should be doing a bit more damage than paladin and probably could use tweaking. What is frustrating is the developers jumping at every possible issue on warrior and taking that time to tweak it, while dark sits out in the cold. It isn't like warrior wouldn't be fine without those tweaks, it would just get better. As Whiskey points out though, paying attention to warrior just exacerbates the issues with dark knight which has not gotten adjustments to its functionality despite copious amounts of feedback. Its not warriors fault this is happening, but its hard to blame people getting frustrated with the devs and by extension the player base.

Only tank that ever gets argued against for any kind of change is WAR. Anything at all is an insult and demands multiple posts saying this must not happen! SMH.

I can personally say this quote is false from the numerous buff dark knight posts I've had to argue for on this forum. No more proof to the contrary is need then when UCoB was cleared and people were coming out of the wood work to tell dark knights that their opinions of the class didn't matter because #worldfirst, an opinion even echoed by Yoshi P in interviews that tank balance is fine because #worldfirst. But again, those were individuals, taking that frustration out on the job of warrior is unwarranted.

[TouchandFeel]

Only tank that ever gets argued against for any kind of change is WAR. Anything at all is an insult and demands multiple posts saying this must not happen! SMH.

All three of the tanks jobs have and still do regularly get slammed for asking for things.

Look at many current Paladin threads where something gets asked for, they are told that they are already "too good for being so easy" and that they have no place asking for anything as they are currently "the best tank". Even in 3.X PLDs were constantly being told by others that they were "perfectly fine" and that they didn't need damage because it wasn't their "niche".

Look at DRK threads. DRKs have consistently, going all the way back to 3.0 been told that they were "fine", to "stop complainaing" and to "just deal" or to "wait until after XYZ" to see if the complaints are warranted. Hell, you still get people using "DRK got Ultimate world first" as some sort of silver bullet statement meant to kill any attempt at DRKs asking for fixes.

Unsurprisingly, it happens to WAR too.

Every tank job has very vocal people that argue against them over virtually anything because of overblown "my team vs. your team" mentalities.

Saying that WAR is the only tank that gets argued against is incredibly disingenuous and just feeds into the same divisive attitudes that you are railing against.

Sure WAR has quirks and stuff that could be better. In the end no job is perfect and every job could be tweaked, fixed, buffed or whatever but people need to be more pragmatic, look at the bigger picture and think things through.

Now as far as the current response to WAR getting more attention and being made "easier to play", whatever that means, the reasons behind people's discontent surrounding this should be fairly evident.

First, as has already been pointed out, WAR has been getting pretty much constant attention and tweaks since the launch of Stormblood, with those tweaks often lining up almost perfectly with what the WAR playerbase asked for. DRK players on the other hand have been met with pretty much nothing but silence which understandably rubs them the wrong way. So when they see more attention being given to WAR and more tweaks coming down the pipe, it pretty much leaves DRK players feeling "What the hell, WAR is in a really good spot compared to the rest of the tanks. Why do they keep getting all the attention?". This lack of acknowledgement while another job keeps getting catered to, leads to some pretty powerful resentment.

Second, a number of people which include some WAR players are worried about even more attention being heaped on WAR after what appears to be a semblance of balance has been achieved between WAR and PLD. Why? Well it's simple, SE has a tendency to over-tune, so while something may be presented as just a simple tweak to make WAR "easier to play" it could result in something that buffs WAR a bunch in a round-about way that then completely screws up any balance that may have existed and then we are back to SE scrambling to fix the problem they created and so the cycle continues.

Overall, a good number of players feel that messing with WAR at this point has more potential to have a detrimental effect on the overall balance of the tanks than it has to make things better. That and the attention and effort that they are allocating towards WAR would likely be better focused on DRK, since most tanks recognize that it currently needs the most work.

[Tegernako]

All three of the tanks jobs have and still do regularly get slammed for asking for things.

I was just exaggerating to make a point lol

[Lyth]

Warrior the only job where if you ask for anything at all you get a horde of people saying you shouldn't because of reasons.

Usually, people react to how you say something, rather than what you say.

In the case of the WAR community, it's a bit like having an acquiaintance who's a bit of a chronic braggart. It's not that you hate them, it's just that you sometimes wish that they'd stop talking about themselves quite so much.

Consider the following post, which you made immediately before this one:

It's probably because good warrior players have like a million different rotations they HAVE to learn or else they suffer a lot.

Meanwhile PLD facerolls and gets nearly the same dps with far more utility and DRK [...] which is even easier.

Everyone has a bit of a bias when it comes to jobs that they spend more time on. Not just because of ego, but because the more time you spend optimising a job, the more nuance you find, regardless of design. If you think any job is "braindead easy", then it's probably a reflection that you haven't spent enough time on it.

And just using common sense: even if you were a proven master of all three tanks and felt qualified to make this sort of claim, it isn't going to endear you to anyone if you do. Of course, to add insult to injury, the people who are proclaiming the loudest that the other two tanks are "braindead easy" are usually WAR one-tricks who have little to no experience or knowledge about either of the other tanks. But that's the nature of the echo chamber.

There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about your chosen job. One of the things that I loved about WAR in ARR was the sense of community and pride in the job. But I think somewhere along the line this has transgressed into arrogance and an overwhelming sense of entitlement.

In HW, it was "superior design". You can actually trace the origin of this phrase back to a WAR tank show between Xeno and Frosty back in 2015. "WAR is just better designed. Don't nerf WAR, buff DRK and PLD to its level." Never mind the fact that attempting to balance jobs through 'buffs' without 'nerfs' is not sustainable. But people continue to parrot it back to this day. Why debate with the echo chamber, when you can let your memes do the thinking for you?

But even two years of "superior design" isn't nearly as bad as six months of "braindead easy". It's the same development process. Xeno puts out the idea that DRK is "braindead easy" based on a whole two days of play testing, repeats himself a whole lot, and then the WAR echo chamber disseminates it. Because it's much easier to outsource your thinking than to actually critically evaluate ideas for yourself.

People lie about difficulty to make themselves look good. Pretending that something difficult is "easy" makes it seem like it was effortless. Making something you do look more difficult than it actually is makes you seem accomplished.

The problem is that less experienced players who are genuinely struggling with WAR due to a lack of practice instead attribute this to a falsely elevated sense of the job's difficulty.

If you got the memo, the devs specifically set out to make every job less punishing in SB. Buff management used to be a much more prevalent problem on WAR. In HW, there were plenty of players with sub 50% Maim and Eye uptime, because of overuse of BB combos. It was painful to watch. Players lost Eye mid-Berserk because they didn't refresh it. They'd not only scupper their own performance, but the raid's as well, by dropping slashing. That's practically a non-issue nowadays, due to revisions to the combo system and longer buff durations. The use of defensive buffs for resource gain in Berserk windows was removed. And it's still apparently too hard, if the devs and the community are to be believed. I sometimes wonder how much of the current WAR playerbase would be capable of playing HW WAR.

I don't mind playing a job that is relatively undertuned. There's a certain satisfaction that comes from outperforming someone who you theoretically shouldn't. "Superior design" wasn't so bad. When players got outperformed by a DRK on WAR back in HW, at least they used to have the self-awareness to recognise that there was a skill gap.

The WF ultimate team brings a DRK. The response: it must be because DRK is easier to play than WAR. There must have been some special advantage, some special buff. Completely ignoring the skill, dedication, and teamwork that went into the achievement. Not to mention the fact that "mechanical difficulty" is never a limiting factor in high level play. "Aw gee, I sure would like to use this job which brings higher dps and better cooldowns to WF prog, but the rotation is too difficult." Said no-one ever.

From a DRK point of view, I think people tend to overestimate our interest in which tank is on top between WAR and PLD. We don't really care. You can fight it out between yourselves. The dev focus is on these two jobs at the moment because they have the biggest impact on tank populations, and by extension, queue times.

As much as I'd like to see some reworks to DRK, it's not even the dev balance issues that bother me. It's the community's deliberate, systemic sniping at DRK's reputation just to make WAR look good. It gets old real fast.

[Tegernako]

You wrote all of that in response to me, just to do exactly what you criticized me of doing?

Usually, people react to how you say something, rather than what you say.

Yeah, kind of like people who pretend it's okay to attack WAR because of the changes made. I see you made no attempt to cover the people in this very thread who said it was okay to rag on warrior and its players because "we're treated so good."

In the case of the WAR community, it's a bit like having an acquiaintance who's a bit of a chronic braggart. It's not that you hate them, it's just that you sometimes wish that they'd stop talking about themselves quite so much.

So you know everyone in the WAR community? Do you say that to everyone who cares about their jobs in a game?

You're adding emotion to posts that may not even exist because you don't have the nuance to know how they are saying it, not just what they are saying. Kind of like the difference between saying "that was dumb" and laughing and saying "that was dumb" and looking at a person as if they were the dumbest person on the planet.

WAR players post about their job because they care about it, and you're calling them arrogant and self centered because of that. Yet you have the nerve to turn it around and act like other jobs are a victim because other people care more about something else. Maybe you should focus more on what people actually say and less on how they say it? (sound familiar?)

Consider the following post, which you made immediately before this one:
Everyone has a bit of a bias when it comes to jobs that they spend more time on. Not just because of ego, but because the more time you spend optimising a job, the more nuance you find, regardless of design. If you think any job is "braindead easy", then it's probably a reflection that you haven't spent enough time on it.

That's 100% an exaggeration to prove a point. You're not incorrect, it certainly can come off the wrong way and I'll probably avoid saying it like that in the future because of it. But I'm also not wrong either. PLD/DRK have much easier timing and rotations, that's a fact.

If you took that post as me saying that PLD/DRK literally need no skill at all then that is not my fault, that is yours for thinking I said something, rather then it being something I actually said. This comes back to the nuance I was talking about earlier. If you were talking to me irl, I wouldn't have said "braindead" with a look of disgust on my face. Their is no hostility, only me trying to find a way to highlight the differences.

And just using common sense: even if you were a proven master of all three tanks and felt qualified to make this sort of claim, it isn't going to endear you to anyone if you do. Of course, to add insult to injury, the people who are proclaiming the loudest that the other two tanks are "braindead easy" are usually WAR one-tricks who have little to no experience or knowledge about either of the other tanks. But that's the nature of the echo chamber.

Well, as I said. It was an exaggeration to prove a point, I don't actually think it takes no skill to be a top tier PLD/DRK. (Which doesn't even make sense as my second main...is DRK so if I did think that I would be insulting myself?!?!) So this entire line of thought is 100% moot. You came to a conclusion that was never close to what I actually thought.

There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about your chosen job.

"In the case of the WAR community, it's a bit like having an acquiaintance who's a bit of a chronic braggart. It's not that you hate them, it's just that you sometimes wish that they'd stop talking about themselves quite so much."

None at all. Not like people will judge you for being proud or wanting changes.

One of the things that I loved about WAR in ARR was the sense of community and pride in the job. But I think somewhere along the line this has transgressed into arrogance and an overwhelming sense of entitlement.

You call me out for making exaggerations to prove a point but then you go and make sweeping generalizations and call people braggarts and arrogant and entitled?

In HW, it was "superior design". You can actually trace the origin of this phrase back to a WAR tank show between Xeno and Frosty back in 2015. "WAR is just better designed. Don't nerf WAR, buff DRK and PLD to its level." Never mind the fact that attempting to balance jobs through 'buffs' without 'nerfs' is not sustainable. But people continue to parrot it back to this day. Why debate with the echo chamber, when you can let your memes do the thinking for you?

It's not a meme first of all. Second of all the idea that you buff upwards rather then nerf downwards has been an argument I've seen in:

Halo, League of Legends, Smite, Battlefield, Call of Duty, Dark Souls, RTS games, etc.

It's not new, it's not specific to xeno or this game. It's just people who think that all jobs or guns or roles or whatever should be as equal as possible, not for exactly the same reasons but so that they can at least all be viable.

If anything, it's a nice way of thinking, it's a desire for their to be more variety, and for more people to be useful no matter what they bring to the table.

But even two years of "superior design" isn't nearly as bad as six months of "braindead easy". It's the same development process. Xeno puts out the idea that DRK is "braindead easy" based on a whole two days of play testing, repeats himself a whole lot, and then the WAR echo chamber disseminates it. Because it's much easier to outsource your thinking than to actually critically evaluate ideas for yourself.

That's right! All of us listen ONLY to Xeno. Not like I had topics about this months before SB came out about my not liking the changes to WAR and before he uttered a word on the topic. Everyone who thinks warrior needed/needs changes is just following an echo chamber of arrogance, who doesn't think critically, and needs other people to think for themself.

The audacity of you to try and claim the higher ground while doing nothing but making assumptions and insulting people while disregarding the very people in this thread attacking war players "just because we deserve it" is honestly despicable.

People lie about difficulty to make themselves look good. Pretending that something difficult is "easy" makes it seem like it was effortless. Making something you do look more difficult than it actually is makes you seem accomplished.

Because saying someone has an easier rotation/timing in a fight is definitely the same as saying a fight is made effortless because of it. You could have 8 warriors that have access to every skill in the game (with 6k dps) doing the un-endying coil and still never beat it, because personal skill matters just as much if not more then job skill. Where has ANYONE ever said that DRK having an easier rotation is what made it coil viable and not WAR on first clear?

The problem is that less experienced players who are genuinely struggling with WAR due to a lack of practice instead attribute this to a falsely elevated sense of the job's difficulty.

Give one example.

The WF ultimate team brings a DRK. The response: it must be because DRK is easier to play than WAR. There must have been some special advantage, some special buff. Completely ignoring the skill, dedication, and teamwork that went into the achievement. Not to mention the fact that "mechanical difficulty" is never a limiting factor in high level play. "Aw gee, I sure would like to use this job which brings higher dps and better cooldowns to WF prog, but the rotation is too difficult." Said no-one ever.

Find me three people who said it was because DRK was easier to play. When I heard of DRK clearing, I thought it must have been because of the very specific things it brought to the table that it does have. The thought of the easier rotation being the reason, NEVER crossed my mind. You literally just made that up because you're biased (all people are biased? Remember?) and need some kind of point to attack people.

From a DRK point of view, I think people tend to overestimate our interest in which tank is on top between WAR and PLD. We don't really care. You can fight it out between yourselves. The dev focus is on these two jobs at the moment because they have the biggest impact on tank populations, and by extension, queue times.

You care enough to try and bring down WAR players, and insult them a whole lot.

As much as I'd like to see some reworks to DRK, it's not even the dev balance issues that bother me. It's the community's deliberate, systemic sniping at DRK's reputation just to make WAR look good. It gets old real fast.

As much as I'd like to see some reworks to DRK, it's not even the dev balance issues that bothers me. It's the community's deliberate, systemic sniping at WAR just to make yourself feel better. It gets old real fast.

It's okay to generalize war players, call them arrogant, blind, rude, say they don't care for other jobs, to make up arguments that were never said. But it's not okay for WAR players to care about their job over others or ask for continual changes.

You're a hypocrite. Don't know where you get off pretending to be some moral authority.

Oh, exciting, can you link a source, I'd love to read.

I think I was wrong. I think I mis-remembered a reddit post for changes to black mage and for some reason remebered it as DRK.

[Aana]

The war group attacks drks and its not fair!

The drk group attacks wars and its not fair!

And this is the general problem with the tank forums. The UP tank of the month makes sweeping generalizations about the OP tank of the month players. The OP tank of the month makes sweeping generalizations about the UP tank of the month players.

You cant on the one hand talk about War players as an arrogant/entitled group of players while in the same breath playing the unfairly generalized victim card when a War claimes Drks players are a whiney group that would rather hold other jobs hostage until they get buffs.

Each group is just doing the same thing to the other making wildly baseless claims about the motivations and personalities of an entire group of players that chose different jobs to main.

Every QOL/Request/Buff thread about war and pld, drks come clamoring out how they need to get to the back of the line and have 'no right' to ask for anything which is petty and absurd.

Every Drk QOL/Request/Buff thread has throngs saying its not as bad as you think, get over it, git gud, etc.

Wars aren't all a buncha mindless Xeno zombies. Drks aren't a buncha edgy crybabies playing a braindead job.

Those are in no way reflections of the hundreds of thousands of players that tank in this game. Forums are a vocal minority. Most people are just logging in and happily playing their jobs every day. Beating content. Most have never heard of Xeno or can name the job comp of world 1st groups. Stop attributing some made up BS to an entire playerbase because it suits you (OP of the month or UP of the month) as the 'true' victim.

Fighting over whos the bigger community victim doesn't make Drk any better or war any worse. The playerbase racing to the bottom of which group is shit on by the other groups more doesn't help anyone.

[Tegernako]

snip

Actually I said nothing, or at least did not mean to imply anything of that sort.

Anyone who does what I said, to any job, is wrong in my eyes. There have no doubt been times when looking back I'd tell myself that I was in the wrong as well.

I'm calling out individuals not jobs. There's a difference.

Far as I can remember, there has never been a time where I have blatantly said all PLD players or all DRK players, I have always tried to say "some" or specifically focus on one person.

I legit have no issue with DRK players feel snubbed...because I'm one of those players who feels snubbed. Yes I want WAR to be as best it can but I also want DRK to be the best it can. I want all jobs to be as good as they can so that everyone can enjoy themselves or at the very least feel useful. (That doesn't mean I think perfect balance is attainable)

I don't think WAR players are the victim of a vast conspiracy I just think certain people here are utter hypocrites. Like I often have serious disagreements with what you say, like this thread for instance, but the thought of you hating warriors never crossed my mind. That's the difference between people like you and others, which is why, no matter how much I disagree with you, I respond to you differently then I do with people like the other mentioned person you quoted. Because I don't think you're a hypocrite or a hater. I just think you're wrong on a lot of things.

(And you know, I'm probably very wrong on a lot of things. I would never say for instance, that I know more about tanks then you do. My disagreements tend to stem more from how I feel about something, rather then math and statistics and stuff which a lot of your posts have)

That being said, not going to disagree with the other parts of your post. That is exactly what happens and that is exactly what everyone claims every time.

Its all good, as you can see the drk threads have slowed down alot. We've either given up or succumbed to a lesser form of stockholm syndrome to a class we like.

You all enjoy your "usability changes", I'll just keep clipping gcds.

And what if you play WAR and DRK? I can't hope for both?