Could we get a change to Hyoton (PvE)?

[RenOkamiya]

snip

Ninja already has a oGCD silence, so I don't see the usefullness of having another one. Loosing a 80 potency skill because you have to keep it for a silence isn't a problem.

Having an other skill buffed is also fine, BUT holding a Ninjutsu is quite the loose however to do only 10 sec of Throwing knife, or assassinate or anything like it.

Unless the fight scales weirdly enough to have your mudra Cd reset RIGHT when you need to Hyoton, it's much more of a pain in the ass than it needs to be.

You said about the DoT idea that it becomes yet another part of the rotation we don't need.
Since it's supposed to have a Ninjutsu slot anyway in the said rotation, I dont see the problem with that. Refreshing a DoT when it fades it's not a revolutionnary idea either.
Suiton is a part of the main rotation, and it's strange that no one seems to complain about that one

[Vshunyi]

If Hyoton isn't going to be for CC, (which I honestly think even if it was we'll just leave the job to the BRD) the DoT route would be the more logical route to go about it. However, I doubt it's something SE will do since they seem to be straying away from have to keep track of too many DoTs and buffs per class. A Hyoton DoT would be like a Mutilate (which they removed!) just with different button presses.

If Hyoton becomes some situational skill, it has to be something super important and/or beneficial to make up for the 300something potency of fuma/raiton.

[Sylvain]

Suiton is a part of the main rotation, and it's strange that no one seems to complain about that one

Basically I don't want another Suiton, one is enough. (the DoT / Assassination would be another Suiton, not the daguer buff one)

I also don't think it would be a pain in the ass if done properly aka giving the debuff/buff a long enough duration.
A very simple example but it could be applied to quiet a few fight.


You're on OS2 and you know the next mechanic is the Tentacle on DPS.Your mudra refreshes and you pop Hyoton, you continue your normal rotation then finally you have the tentacle debuff, you move away, spam 4-5 daguer while moving, waiting and moving back and you simply recontinue. Nothing stops you from Raiton-ing the boss if your mudra happens to be available while you're at your position for the tentacle.

Giving Hyoton a duration of 30sec would allow something like this to be done on most fight.

And yeah regarding the silence, myself including, it seems many people forgot we do have one (which support the idea that it would be utterly useless)

[SpeckledBurd]

The problem with changinng Hyoton to something less niche than a crowd control option is that despite being a niche action, it's a single niche action on the job that has the single most versatile kit in the game, attached to a system that already does pretty much everything. They can't change it into another Raid Buff unless they want to substantially Nerf Ninja's overall DPS because it's already got the single most perfect Raid Buff in the game in Trick Attack. They could change it to a Solo DoT, but as others have already said at that point its either a buff to Ninja's DPS when it doesn't need it or adding additional complexity to the job for the sake of complexity.

[RenOkamiya]

Basically I don't want another Suiton, one is enough. (the DoT / Assassination would be another Suiton, not the daguer buff one)

It was sarcasm ^^

You're on OS2 and you know the next mechanic is the Tentacle on DPS.)

I don't know, I have a tank well enough carrying to put the boss between the spots here so ^^ (as all tank should at least try to do but I get what you say).

At the very least, I would want the binding effect not sucking or be totally useless in raid. Or just letting down the potency of the Jutsu itself and giving some buff like you said, but I'd rather have something like an "ice mirror" to keep dpsing at range with our melee stuffs. Specially when you want to keep Futon up and you cant. It just would be uptime without changing the rotation one bit. Just not allowing, even with true north, the potency/effects of the positionnals and not being able to put a sneaky Trick attack without effort.

[Eloah]

Hey, here is an interesting twist that might, might work. Similar to the Assassinate, Throw Dagger examples, but in reverse. Why not buff Hyoton using another skill but not one that has "full" uptime.

What if we made Suiton buff Hyoton, work the whole water to ice angle. Basically, if you have Suiton up, using Hyoton creates a different effect. Now just saying that to someone with no knowledge of Ninja might think its a good idea, but anyone familiar with the system will tell you it can't be done. The Suiton buff is only up for 10 seconds, and the Ninjutsu recast time is 20 seconds. But if you use Kassatsu the Madras reset allowing you to use Hyoton while under the Suiton buff. Because you'd have to use Kassatsu to utilize this new form of Hyoton, the skill itself would be under its CD time.

Basically, you'd have a choice of using Trick Attack and having Raiton crit, or using the buffed Hyoton. As for the buff itself, maybe just a flat potency of 400 or 500. I cant say if this would be OP or not, and admittedly the potency does look it. But, it's just a though. But with this method you'd alternate the skills for greater damage, in the long run, short term there would be no major difference. And the effect could be something else that is usefull but not needed all the time.

[RenOkamiya]

Problem is with the Suiton buff, it fades right when your trick attack hits. So, between trick attack OR Hyoton, I would always go trick attack. The idea is not bad but not with Suiton which already has a synergise buff with something else.
Plus having 2 things heavily resting on one Jutsu is a bad idea I think.
I'd rather see the "stealing" aspect of Mug reworked for buffing Hyoton in this case (since, who uses it to farm mobs to have MAYBE 1 piece of shit you don't need taking an inventory slot anyway )

[Eloah]

snip

True, the Suiton thing might feel more of a hassle than needed, I was just thinking of a way to make it work and thought the whole water to ice aspect was nice. Buy your idea with Mug works, and it gave me a thought.

So using Hyoton and Mug, with either skill being able to be used first, followed by the second, we can create an attack/buff combo. Lets say you use Mug first, it inflicts the target with some status, "Wide Open" maybe, like "wide open to attack"?, anyway if Hyoton is used while under that status the attack will be higher, like the 400/500 I suggested before. But, if you reverse it use Hyoton, and the enemy gains the Hyoton status, using Mug would steal some HP (since Mug's potency is "low", like 140, or something, not sure if 100% of the attack is best or like 15% of you total HP) Its basically a way to add back in the old effect of Mug while under a certain poison.

Now Hyoton has 3 choices, its regular self for bind, when and if you ever use it, a big damaging attack, that falls in line with the Mug CD, and an HP recover, that admittedly takes some time to set up but is there if needed/wanted.

These options shouldn't hurt the main rotation/remaining skill set either. The HP steal was once there, this is just an odd way of reimplimenting it. And as for the attack, Hyoton and Mug alone would be 280 potency, so its not a "major" buff making the attack 400/500. And offsetting it could be as simple as just lengthening Mugs CD. And if anyone want to mention the Ninki gause and the buff it gets from Mug, simply changing it from 30 to 40 would "adjust" that issues as within a 6 minute timespan you'd use 3 mugs not 4.

Under 90 seconds
Attack: 400+400+400+400=1600
Ninki: 30+30+30+30=120

Under 120 seconds
Attack: 400+400+400=1200
Ninki: 40+40+40=120

[RenOkamiya]

I don't think changing the CD or effect Ninki on mug is necessary since even if it's a 90sec vs jutsu 20, you don't use them back to back in your opener I don't think. Having them "line up" too well like that is just more cliping or delaying. We have jugulate that is 30sec based, and it works just fine. Dream within a drem is 60, also based on 30 (and 20 sure).
But when you suiton, you don't trick right after unless your in a pinch, you delay it until your 2sd combo GCD to have the 3rd one hit during the vuln debuff.

I'd have to test and see when mug come out of CD but I don't think it's a huge issue it's 90sec. Duality is also 90sec and like jugulate works "mostly" fine.

[Eloah]

Theoretically, regardless of using Hyoton first or Mug, the two skill would line up every 3 minutes with Mug being 90 seconds and Hyoton being 20.

Ninjutsu: 20-20-20-20-20-(Mug solo?)--20-20-20-20=180
Mug: 90-70-50-30-10---------90---------60-40-20-90=180
Trick Attack: ----60-40-20-60-----------------------40-20-60-40=180

You'll notice that in the center there would be some waiting, which you could do, or you could use Mug solo. But for the most part this usage of the Skill would be up every 3 minutes. And having a "potential" 400/500 potency skill available ever 3 minutes doesn't sound like it will break Ninjas overall DPS. As long as there is no interference from Suiton and Trick Attack. And based on the timing oy looks like it would take 9 minute befor the 2 skills overlap.Squeezing this method into the rotation wouldn't be too hard, you'd just be shifting where and when you'd be using certain skills.