Could we get a change to Hyoton (PvE)?

[KasaiTaiyome]

It's nice to see that other people care about this enough to at least discuss it. One argument which came up is, that one has to see "the whole package". This is what I actually tried to do. Hyoton has been part of the whole package for as long as the job exists. I know a few situations myself in which one could use Hyoton, but those are mostly solo content. Examples for group content do exist but the fact, that this bind is removed so easily by stray damage, basically degrades Hyoton to a weaker damage ability. And for raw single target damage we have other Ninjutsu that do the job much better.

Also talking about a rarely used ability in this case seems a bit off. It is more like an almost never used ability. I think One-Ilm-Punch was mentioned here. I only know it's current version, no idea if that was ever changed and if so, what it was like before. Currently though, in group content it does serve to interrupt an AoE of trash mobs. Hyoton can't even do that. If I did some of the more difficult endgame group content, I expect nobody would even want me to use Hyoton.

[RylaBee]

This ability looks to me in the same boat as Mug, BLM Sleep or WHM Repose.

They seem like holdovers from completely different game design philosophy.
Mug is sort of "class flair" ability, others are clearly meant as Crowd Control, which howevery is never used in any serious content..

[wereotter]

Mug is still pretty useful as it both is an OGCD damage dealer and was reworked in Stormblood to dramatically increase your Ninki gauge.

I think the solution to Hyoton is to make it a viable part of Ten-Chi-Jin. It's unfortunate that our highest DPS for that skill is identical regardless of if we're hitting a single target or multiple targets. Maybe give it a potency increase in combo with fuma? Something you'd never get without Ten-Chi-Jin but would give us the option of using it for higher single target damage.

[KasaiTaiyome]

This ability looks to me in the same boat as Mug, BLM Sleep or WHM Repose. [...]

Mug is still pretty useful as it both is an OGCD damage dealer and was reworked in Stormblood to dramatically increase your Ninki gauge. [...]

Now there's a thought: How about instead of adding a Debuff, Hyoton does something for the Ninki skills? It could add a small amount to the Ninki gauge - not more than 10 because with a maximum of 20 seconds its cooldown is much shorter than mug. It could also slightly reduce the cooldown of one of the other two Ninki abilities instead, somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds maybe?

[RenOkamiya]

Now there's a thought: How about instead of adding a Debuff, Hyoton does something for the Ninki skills? It could add a small amount to the Ninki gauge - not more than 10 because with a maximum of 20 seconds its cooldown is much shorter than mug. It could also slightly reduce the cooldown of one of the other two Ninki abilities instead, somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds maybe?

The problem here is that if you rework Hyoton to have a impact on the Ninki, it would become mandatory over every other Ninjutsu besides Suiton because it's party wide buff. Like you said 10 Ninki every 20 sec is way better than mug and would be overpower. As for reducing the cooldown, the "order" is pretty clear now, and feels "fluid" enough, if you start to mess with the cd's that going to be a pain in the ass ^^

[KasaiTaiyome]

Yes, that is very true. Also that would mean, that Hyoton stays useless until level 62, when you first get the Ninki gauge or even level 68 when you first get an ability with a cooldown to reduce. So it wouldn't just throw the job out of balance, it would also stay uselsess most of the leveling process. I didn't think that through. Anyway there is no telling whether the developers actually read these forums or take inspiration from the suggestions. Or am I mistaken here?

[RenOkamiya]

Most of the skills are useless during the lvling process on everyclass anyway so I would care much about that. Problem is that we have useless skills in raid content. I'm not saying we should use every last one of them on every uncounter, but the fact is it's a problem since it's unusable. The exeption here is the arm's lenght in the cross role panel which is actually good on some fights.

It's nice to discuss but if I take it from the past, DRG for example got feint since 2.0, and was never ever reworked until SB (or should I say removed ^^) so I'm not too optimistic. I think they prefere spend their ressources on content and other stuffs than 1 skill on 1 job ^^
But it would be nice anyway

[wereotter]

So an adjustment to my earlier suggestion that Hyoton combo off Fuma.... The simplest solution to my earlier suggestion is just to increase the potency of the move, and maybe remove the bind (but leave it as is for PvP content)

If you increase the potency to 260, then you will have a single target Ten-Chi-Jin combo that is mildly different from an AOE version as Hyoton will now have a higher potency on a single target by 10 potency than Katon, and you'll still be able to Katon for an AOE Ten-Chi-Jin. That kind of buff will still leave the skill 100 potency less than Raiton, so it won't change anything outside of the combo, but will now give the skill a place in your rotation.

[Zojha]

And as far as "boosting it while nerfing something else", that would be fixing something that ain't broke. Making hyoton useful at the expense of something else would make it an extra part of the rotation for no benefit.

Or would it?
Let's look at the beginning of Ninja.

You start out with Spinning Edge and since that is the only skill at the time, you can dump all the power a Ninja is supposed to have into it. And that works. But you might think that only one button gets a little boring over time, so you want to add another skill to the repertoire - Gust Slash. Since all the power you want a Ninja to have is already in Spinning Edge however, you cannot make Gust Slash stronger, so it goes unused. You have two abilities but still a one-button gameplay.

How do you get out of it? With just the process I just outlined. You do not want people to ignore Spinning Edge, but you also do not want Gust Slash to go unused, so you make Gust Slash stronger only if it follows Spinning Edge and draw that power from Spinning Edge so that the whole remains the same. And whenever you add a new skill to the kit of Ninja, because you might think even 2 buttons isn't the most engaging thing in the world, you either increase the power budget a ninja might have (like expansions do) or you repeat that same process.

Except that now, you are coming along and saying:"This will just make Gust Slash an extra part of the Rotation for no benefit - That's fixing something that ain't broke."

On principle, I disagree with that mindset. It isn't fixing something that ain't broke, it is adding complexity, which may be a good or a bad thing depending on how engaging something already is - It can also go the other extreme and become overwhelming, which is just as bad as being overly simple. SE actually already felt that this was the case in HW and dialed down complexity as a result and that's probably the best argument one can bring if one doesn't want change: It's not in line with dev goals. They actually went the opposite way and removed abilities while funneling their power into other parts of the kit with SB and you may even think they didn't go far enough with that.

That all said: I still think that if you give Ninjas Hyoton, it shouldn't go as unused as it currently is. The uses it has are so few and far between that one is grasping for straws to even bring them up. It's not a pressing issue, but worth thinking about going forward - This baggage will be carried over to the next expansion and however many might follow after. I spitballed one possible way, but there are several others.

[Kabooa]

Now there's a thought: How about instead of adding a Debuff, Hyoton does something for the Ninki skills? It could add a small amount to the Ninki gauge - not more than 10 because with a maximum of 20 seconds its cooldown is much shorter than mug. It could also slightly reduce the cooldown of one of the other two Ninki abilities instead, somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds maybe?

I gave you two examples.