Try to predict Nerf/Buff/QoL of 4.2 DPS Edition

[Kabooa]

Mch: “The community seemed to not like the change we made in 4.15, so we’re lowering Hypercharge back to 5%.”

I'd be very happy for this, because maybe they'd realized sometimes the proper approach to job imbalance is that the offender needs to be toned down, not everyone toned up.

[Silver-Strider]

Wha?
/10char

Ok, since it's very clear that people can't understand what I'm saying, I'll go ahead and spell it out.

NIN can do Trick Attack once every minute. Even if a NIN and MCh overlap their debuff so that they essentially canceled each other out and thus only get 20 seconds of extra damage on the 1st minute, NIN would be able to Trick Attack again within the 2 minute window before MCH could get theirs for another 10 seconds of extra raid damage, hence 30 seconds of extra damage every 2 minutes vs 20 seconds every 2 minutes with MCH alone.

As for the LB penalty, it was in regards to the current meta. NIN and MCH are both already there so you wouldn't replace the NIN with another MCH but since the original comment stated "Why bring an NIN instead of a Ranged DPS that does the same thing" that what is being implied. You'd realistically bring a SMN, MNK or SAM instead.

SAM and WAR can provide slashing debuff. Are you saying Shadewalker/Smokescreen is worth a raid spot by itself? I can't even think of a scenario besides Neo-Exdeath where if you use it at the pull and forget about it nothing bad happens. If they wanted to make enmity control our niche the CD's would have to be lowered significantly. Even then, not really sure if that'd be worth a raid spot over superior damage.

There is always going to be a meta, I don't see anyone complaining about BRD's >.>

If Trick Attack was nerfed to 5%, I'd expect NIN to get an across the board potency increase to make up for it. They could decreasing the CD on Shadewalker and Smokescreen on top of the potency increase as well and it would be perfectly fine.

[Legion88]

Hypercharge is more like 27 seconds every 2 minutes versus TA's 10 seconds every minute.
this should meke both more or less equal and in the end the higher personal DPS from MCH should compensate for the little bit more overall damage potency from TA.
And in this is not included the possibility to spread Hypercharge to multiple targets, which makes it far better for doubleboss encounters.
So the enmity control from NIN also gives a little DPS boost to tanks in the start of the encounter for not needing "tank stance" and enmity combo to etablish a solid enmity lead.

[Karshan]

If they did that, the duration of the debuff would have to increase as well. Trick Attack would be basically identical to MCH Vulnerability (5% 10 secs every minute vs 5% 20 secs every 2mins). Why bring a melee when a ranged can do exactly the same thing, and has more damage to boot? If anything they should give trick attack to another class too.

Because that would be the exact intention ? Put an end to guaranteed raid spots and put up a rotating meta instead of that one trusting top spot for over a year now ? (NIN being a guaranteed spot for too long now).

With this change on TA (alongside with a buff to solo DPS of NIN to compensate) NIN would be in competition with MCH, not going alongside MCH, with also BRD, oh and DRG to go with double ranged, and Ooooh no more DPS spots AAAANNNND we've got tha same A team as forever. Almost got something different though

[Singularity]

Overheat duration either increased to 11 seconds or reduced to 9. IMO the 6-GCD Overheat should be either completely impossible or doable at any ping. Right now no amount of skill will help you if your connection isn't up to scratch and that's a bad place to be.

[Idolon]

With this change on TA (alongside with a buff to solo DPS of NIN to compensate) NIN would be in competition with MCH, not going alongside MCH, with also BRD, oh and DRG to go with double ranged

If we want to end NIN's guaranteed spot, we have to do something about its aggro tools, not just Trick Attack. Allowing your main tank to pull in DPS stance is a significant damage gain, though it's difficult to calculate exactly how much.

From data people have collected using 3rd party tools I won't risk naming here, the raid DPS contributed by party buffs from each job, as a percentage of the total raid DPS, is roughly:

AST (1-3%) > DRG w/ MCH and BRD (~2.5%) > BRD = NIN in perfectly synchronized group (~2%) > DRG w/ MCH or BRD (~1.9%) > NIN = MCH (1.5-1.7%) > SCH (1-1.7%) > DRG (~1%) > MNK = RDM (~0.8%) > SMN (~0.5%)

Note that this does not account for shadewalker. If NIN had no aggro tools, it would be fairly even with MCH.

[zuzu-bq]

Mch: “The community seemed to not like the change we made in 4.15, so we’re lowering Hypercharge back to 5%.”

It will be more like "The community seems to still not play MCH, so we're buffing Hypercharge further."

[Sylvain]

Allowing your main tank to pull in DPS stance is a significant damage gain, though it's difficult to calculate exactly how much.

I hardly see how 1 (maybe 2) threat under dps stance can be a "significant" dps gain over the course of a 6+min fight.
Assuming a 2.5 recast time, a fight with 6min of damage done, we have 144 GCD
Let say it saves 2 threat combo and that, to be very generous, dps combo without tank stance would do 50% more damage. We have
full dps : 144 dps combo
threat start : 138 dps combo, 6 threat combo
With DPS combo doing 50% more, 6 threat combo would deal 77% of 6 dps combo resulting 4.8 dps combo. Let say you can't land the 0.8 so only 4!
We have 144 GCD vs 142, we loose 2 GCD
That's 1.4% more damage.

I hardly see how 1.4% tank dps can be considered "significant" damage.


And this simple calculation made the gruesome assumption that overall, dps combo would deal 50% more than threat combo under tank stance.
I'm sure it's different from Job to Job, but I hardly believe this is the case.
And even if it is the case,again. We'll hardly reach 2% dps, and this is for a rather short fight of 6min.

I'm sure that by simply looking at some log we can actually see how much of a difference it does, and I would be extremely surprised it makes a big difference.

---------
However, I agree on everything else. I do not say NIN threat management isn't powerful. It is very useful BUT, saying that it allows to significantly increase the group dps by allowing the tank to not go in tank stance at all and save 1-2 threat combo is a tad bit far fetched.

[Legion88]

snip

TA is around 1,5% gain, Hypercharge the same.
If you say 1,4% MT damage gain (0,15 to 0,2% RDPS) is not worth considering just because it seems tiny is beyond me, especially because the tank can also take advantage of the opener buffs from the party more effective.

[Sylvain]

TA is around 1,5% gain, Hypercharge the same.
If you say 1,4% MT damage gain (0,15 to 0,2% RDPS) is not worth considering just because it seems tiny is beyond me, especially because the tank can also take advantage of the opener buffs from the party more effective.

First, I didn't talk about TA and HC value in raid. These are very strong and valuable.


I said that saying "NIN threat generation will increase Tank dps significantly" is a bit far fetched. And this was making some gruesome assumption such as "1 dps combo does 50% more damage 1 threat combo"which is not true

Just to take DRK (the tank i'm the most familiar with)
Threat combo does 670 potency
DPS combo does 700 potency (536 effective potency with Grit, -20% damage)
The dps combo then deals 30% more damage.
You can argue about min maxing the Dark Art and mana gained from the dps combo vs threat combo, AA etc but I doubt this will result in the threat combo (under grit) effectively dealing 50% less damage than the dps combo.

This was also considering a fight with 6min of effective GCD on the boss. The longer the fight, smaller the gain will be.

My point was NIN threat management is a strong tool in threat management, not in raid dps gain. (spare nich situation)
Increasing the tank dps by, at best, 2% is NOT a significant raid dps increase. It can be a useful dps gain on an add (OS3 for instance), but over the course of a fight the damage gain will be trivial. Therefor, NIN threat generation tool should be balanced around its usefulness and not the trivial damage it brings to the raid because 0.15~0.2% raid dps is not a significant it is a dps gain, but it is not significant.

Your raid dps will vary more from your AST card draw or how many more crit your SCH libra allowed to land. (sometime it's 0, sometime it's all attack)


If you fail a boss and wipe from enrage at 0.1%, the cause will most likely not be "our tank didnt do 300 more potency, nothing else could have been done to compensate our tank 3 GCD damage loss from its threat combo".

There will be a long list of minor things that happened throughout the fight, the eventual dps gained from NIN threat skill could be added to the list, but a dps dying once, failing one GCD, your healer missing a few DoT uptime, etc etc etc, abad crit streak from a single dps, even poor card draw (chain aoe spire/ewer).
This will have a significant impact on the raid dps.



That's it, so NIN threat tool on tank pull it is a dps gain, but it is a trivial dps gain and should be considered as such.