Is It Possible to Defeat the Time Sink?

[Eruantien]

As to the question, I do not think it is possible to make a super successful MMO without a timesink, because without a timesink people on mass will not continue to come back because they have everything, and done everything, meaning there will be no populace to keep the game going.

[Alise]

My question is; if it's possible for an MMO to exist without that design philosophy and still be played as much as whatever popular MMO's that are out now?

Hard, but I hope it possible. I would play it for sure. (but play as casual player instead)

[Kraggy]

This is why I hate the 'winner takes all' approach in MMOs where only one person gets the reward for the efforts of the whole group, and much prefer 'barter token' system where everyone comes away with something for the effort the expended.

The worst example of the WTA system is of course seen in FFXI, back in the day when Dynamis Shell leaders got all the phat lewt and the minions came away with little or nothing: though in that case more fool them for putting up with it, nonetheless that was the only way anyone was going to get gear upgrades back then so they had little choice.

[Tsubaki187]

The reason why there are time sinks in MMO is exactly what you described. For pay to play MMOs, the game needs to keep players playing and paying month after month to keep subscriptions active and turn a profit. Without time sinks and carrot on the stick type designs, pay to play games will not succeed.

What you are asking for is exactly what Guild Wars 2 is like. You are rewarded for everything you do, there are no time sinks in the general sense. There is no carrot on the stick mentality.

Keep in mind, GW2 will be released as a buy to play game, no monthly fees. It won't be advertised as an MMO that you'd spend month after month playing, simply because they don't need you to play every single month between expansions. They make their profit from initial box sales, plus a little extra from a cash shop (most likely just vanity items).

Because of this, they don't expect people to play it like pay to play MMOs. If you play for a few months, achieve everything you wanted to, then stop until the next expansion, that's fine with them. As long as you had fun during those few months they know you're likely to buy the expansion, generating more revenue for them.

So it's up to you to make the decision. Do you want to play an MMO that keeps you busy indefinitely or do you want an MMO that you can essentially "complete", put it down for a few months, then continue after an expansion releases?

This. GW is a perfect example of a game designed without time sinks. They make their money off of units sold, nothing more. So whether you play for 5 minutes or 5 months makes no difference, except for fun game design that makes you want to play. Time sinks and mind numbing grinds is not fun, so the game isn't developed around the traditional "keep them playing for as long as we can to milk money" mentality. If that's what you seek then GW2 is the answer.

In my opinion, most people want the same things in every MMO; money and end-game gear. That's all you really need. But I think people get to distracted by other things or they're to ambitious and set to many goals and end up spending more time doing things when they should just be focusing on what the really want. If you only have like 4 hours to play everyday but spent those hours on, i.e. making gil and doing primals, then I think you would be more satisfied with the progression of your character.

As long as you're paying a monthly subscription, there will always be a time sink. Just have to use your time wisely.

[Nakiamiie]

So I've just come out of a 4 hour party built up of 4 people. The plan was to go around to the beastmen strongholds and get the Key's off the NM's that we could handle. We figured we could get the chest items that we wanted for all four of us. I wanted it to be a 4 man party because its bad enough with a party of 8 guys, all wanting a drop.

2 of us got the ring-band they wanted. Me and another guy, didn't get anything after an obscene amount of tries. I already know that Final Fantasy is notorious for low drop rates. I learned that in my days of FFXI. But when the party came to an end, (due to a link, wipe and disconnection) I realised I had grinded through hoards of enemies for 4 hours only to walk away with nothing. One could say that there is a satisfaction found in seeing my party members gain a drop, but the taste quickly becomes bitter once you don't get anything for yourself. At the end of the day, you sat there for four hours with nothing to show for it.

I can understand that a tight knit Linkshell could be willing to put up with this to fully equip the endgame team with dope gear but what of those who aren't deep into the game like that?... It's really made me question the whole ethos of an MMO. Let's not kid ourselves, we all know these games are designed in a way that demands repetition, time and luck. If this wasn't the case, then people would stop playing much sooner which would result in canceled subscriptions and loss of money for the company. They have to keep our interest and that hunger to be stronger so they cast Time Sink in order to keep us trying, playing, hoping, wanting, etc.

tl:dr below

My question is, do you think it's possible to design a super successful MMO without it being a time sink? Is it a better idea to have a super hard monster let go of its rare drop 100% of the time in order to reward the players for simply defeating it in the first place? Because in reality, the way these games are right now, every piece of awesome rare loot that we own is not because of our "hard work", "great strategies" or "skill". It's only because we had some time, a bit of of trail and error, a pinch of dedication and a whole bottle of lucky sauce.

Those Unique/Untradable Pair of Boots that are keeping you warm at night is more thanks to your lucky stars than it is to the great team you assembled. Because if it hadn't dropped, your competence as a strategist wouldn't have made a difference.

Some may not agree with that, but honestly, it's the truth... In my opinion...

What do you think?

Yup, that is a great problem and the reason I quit FFXI in the first place.
Having insane time sink is not only a way to keep player paying, it's also a good way to LOSE players.

As you said, fights should be even more strategic and hard AND with a 100% drop. Not a stupid "be lucky smartass" drop.
You what disappointed the most in this game so far? Spending so much time and energy on Ifrit without ever seeing a single weapon in my inventory so far. And I am lucky to have 4 totems! Only, 4 stupid totems. There are 7 different weapons requiring 10 totems each. *sigh*

And you know what pains me the most? Knowing I will not get anything when I finally succeed at winning the Moogle fight. Not only are the drops insanely impossible, it will require 20 nuts for 1 weapon. I will swear I will go crazy before then.

This is not entertainment, it's a f***ing job.

I seriously hope new GREATLY IMPROVED drop rates will come with 1.21.
Just with 100% drop rate for everyone in the party means 70 WINS of the Ifrit battle to get all the weapons and 140 WINS for the Moogle fight. It's already a grind with 100% drop rate for EVERYONE in the party! How can Yoshi-P not see that?????

[DeadRiser]

Ok. Been grinding the mercenary's leggings in U'ghamaro. It's a copper coffer key. I spent 3-4 hours the first night, and 2 hours tonight farming it.

Left with a bunch of level 40 gear, mostly belts. Why can't we just have the key be rare drop, and the chest be close to 100%.

Or make it so you have to do something to make the key drop. I'm tired of all this grinding for nothing. Gear is barely being spiritbonded and we aren't leveling up. WHY must you do this to me SE?

[Asiaine]

I think it is possible.

I feel the major sadness that comes about is from the 'randomness' of things. If perhaps it was less random (but still required the same amount of time) then maybe we'd all feel better?

Killing Ifrit 10 times and still not getting a single drop will make you sad.

But what if you KNEW that if you killed him 50 times you will for SURE get something you want? Then you would be happy.

So the 'time sink' could shift from relying on randomness, to relying on number of times you repeat an event.

Granted, that is just as 'boring' (Off to Kill iffy 50 more times to get the claws!), but I think it is a step up from: Off to kill iffy 50 more times.. Hopefully I'll get something.

Either way, time sink accomplished!