Rival Wings rewards (exp/tomes)

[Airget]

Even though the xp rate isn't the most efficient I've taken 3 jobs to 69, saving some space to do their job quest and it's definitely been more fun that just doing dailies.

XP doesn't have to be huge to make it worthwhile, if the content is engaging then in your mind the leveling experience is faster because you're enjoying yourself as you do it. It's not like PVE content where you know what to expect, in PVP you have to look and react to the situation.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

And it's honestly just dumb. There's always a trend for expert players to try to make things harder over time, because the skill gap between an expert and average can be incredibly large. If you want 3.0 back, you essentially want to increase that gap. We've had a long history of people assuming that players will rise to the challenge when they do that. They don't, really.

Well that's a large part of the problem honestly. People didn't want to try or learn PvP then. It was never hard. Never. But SE made no effort to teach, and the playerbase didn't, and generally still doesn't know of the resources the community made for themselves all this time. I personally wrote 2 Frontlines guides, and made a few video tutorials showing why I say some of the things I say, like MCHs not fully loading before entering battle. And STILL I see and hear MCHs fully load up before the gate comes down.

During the early days of the Garo event, I remember plenty of times seeing advice defiantly refused; the now-famous "you don't pay my sub" meme. Even now too; had someone tell me "Nobody wants to hear your suggestions, Lace", as I was telling them not to drop off cliffs to reach a large ice teeming with enemies while we only had one healer. Can you guess what happened?

You perhaps have the mistaken impression that the vets want things to be tougher. We don't. Learning how to PvP was never tough. I taught a guy 3.x PvP MCH in the course of a week, and through duels. In no time at all, with practice and effort on his part, he plays well enough that I have to caution my team if he's on the other side. He also learned to be a good healer in 3.x too. Maybe he's a prodigy, but I saw the work he put into it, and I see how it paid off. Even I wasn't so amazing at first, but I simply pushed myself and faced all challenges head on. Either I won or I learned the hard way. A lot of the veterans did. But rather than want the bar raised, we just wanted people who were willing to learn what we could teach with far less struggle. The PvP system did not need to change so drastically to facilitate this.

It's worth noting, before I forget, that even if BRD was easy to play, the bigger picture was that many BRD players didn't like the change. They didn't ask for it, and BRD wasn't so difficult before that either.

[Wintersandman]

Either I won or I learned the hard way. A lot of the veterans did. But rather than want the bar raised, we just wanted people who were willing to learn what we could teach with far less struggle. The PvP system did not need to change so drastically to facilitate this.

This right here. I had a friend who main'd ninja. He was an extremely good PvE Ninja and knew how to burst but wasn't good at PvP. But I was a PLD main at the time and he quickly learned how deadly pushback was. He eventually learned how to beat me. Shoot I didn't know the potential until I look up Rara Mira videos.

[RiyahArp]

Something that is easy for you may not be easy for everyone. PvP is not something you could go down, read a wiki or watch a video, and then execute relatively simple steps to suddenly become competent. A lot of the feast back then was trying to use a really unwieldy skill set under some pretty harsh settings while managing being cced as well as dealing with FFXIV's notoriously wonky netcode. Actually executing what people taught was a tremendous issue, in the same way anyone can read a guide on Savage yet struggle in mastering it.

Gamers somehow tend to assign all the fault to the players as if it was something simple to do and people just didn't do it. it's a lot more complicated than that, and simplifying was an attempt to reduce some of the mechanical complexity so players could focus better on the tactical stuff. You're asking for what you think is tactical complexity, but will also end up adding mechanical complexity back in too.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

But what mechanical complexity though? If you played a job in PvE, you knew how the skill worked. It would be no different in PvP, save for something like Unmend which became a draw in, Unleash which became a bind, and Protect which was (then) useless. How things worked didn't change. How to use them effectively together to burst did, and THAT wasn't too difficult to learn.

I understand an attempt was made to try and simplify things to ease learning, but as I said, it wasn't needed. More initiative and willingness to learn how PvP worked was needed. And many Shatter matches, and even Rival Wings now shows me just how little many players understand PvP in general. I don't want to make it sound like it was all so easy to learn - believe me, a LOT of my trial and error was just error. But I wasn't afraid to take those chances and push myself. Sure I screwed up and people wanted to point fingers, but more often than not, I did things right, or the risks I took proved worth it.

Lamia's an Aether server, right? Why don't we team up sometime? Maybe we can gain a better understanding of each others viewpoints?

[Wintersandman]

So SE simplified the system and people still don’t know how it works. Can’t make anything idiot proof because they always build a better idiot.

I still don’t get what your salt is with 3.x Riyah.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Oh Riyah. . .

Season 6 is underway. If anyone's queueing for the Feast, they're probably queueing for ranked. Sure, the unranked modes are pretty active at times, but now that people know those weapons are a prize, most want to try to rank up for them in this first shorter season.

As for the 3.x vs 4.x PvP, no, changing it either way isn't going to make things easier for anyone who doesn't want to learn or doesn't care to and just simply wants the XP from the mode. But! Using MCH for example, you won't have a situation where you know the job in PvE, then you come to PvP and you hear "You don't have Gauss Round or Ricochet. And you can't give MP or TP, not even with PvP skills. Speaking of PvP skills, your aoe stun makes you overheat, but it's tied to your gauge, so if you're in cooldown after an overheat and it runs out, you can't stun. Oh, heat works differently too. Hot Shot and Cooldown are the same button, and are both a +/- 25 now. Oh, and you can't use turrets or anything turret related. . ."

MCH might as well be an entirely different job between the two (and sadly, people STILL don't play this "easier" PvP MCH right most of the time). You continue to see everything wrong with 3.x PvP, but overlook what was right. Were you not the one suggesting a skill to help melees close the gap in a different thread? That's what Fetter Ward helped with tremendously. And where is Fetter Ward now?

[RiyahArp]

Third, you misread, I queued for ranked. The other modes don't pop at all. Lamia is a primal data center. The weapons aren't really a draw.

I'm not sure what the latter point is. If you want 3.0 pvp, you are still wanting a pvp kit that is different from current pve. The difference would be that you have a lot more buttons and abilites in pvp rather than a lot less. If it's the whole 3.0 kit, probably close to double the actions. I'd probably say work on more of a 4.0 with CC model, if that...I can't ever see myself playing DRG with 3 separate jumps and a single buff for jumps again, or needing to use heavy thrust and life surge in addition to normal attacks.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

"Too many buttons"

Shall I break out the hotbar pics again? I've disproven that one several times, and still keep the pics handy to do so on demand.

[Wintersandman]

"Too many buttons"

Shall I break out the hotbar pics again? I've disproven that one several times, and still keep the pics handy to do so on demand.

Agreed. I could fit all the relevant "PvP buttons" into less than what we have now for PvE. My only complaint with the 3.x system is hotbars were all dependent on job and not gearset. So if I swapped it for one it swapped it for my PvE gearset as well.