Please add a mode that doesn't require as much teamwork.

[Divinemights]

It wound up hardening on primal to mael being first, twin being second, and flames being third. It was really bad, and I'm glad that mode is dead now.

Please, Malestorm is really weak in 24 men and so so in 72 men before the Garo event.

It was pretty even between 3 GC in 72 men and Flame/Adder > Malestorm in 24 men. It is until this expansion where you are getting botters chose flame or adder because of easy queue time that gave Malestorm players a false impression that they are dominating. Try Frontline now and you will see Malestorm is struggling

[RiyahArp]

Please, Malestorm is really weak in 24 men and so so in 72 men before the Garo event.

Sigh. I'm not arguing this again. Look at Lodestone stats, and if you actually played shatter towards the end of 3.0, you saw it. They are struggling now because they all stopped farming shatter and its purely random who goes on at all.

Riyah, what was bad? Did you get jumped by ninjas? That was their purpose. They were meant to take out the stragglers. I have been on both sides of the coin and you don’t see me crying about how bad it was. I got outplayed. Simple as that. Now we just have crap.

I was a healer in it, so I didn't have many issues with NIN. My point is more if you love the better tactics of 3.0, you kind of have to realize they existed because counterplay was bad or nonexistent. Nin could take out stragglers only because stragglers as a whole were at a disadvantage in counterplaying it, the same way people at a disadvantage with sleep in frontlines, or stunlocks in feast.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Sigh. I'm not arguing this again. Look at Lodestone stats, and if you actually played shatter towards the end of 3.0, you saw it. They are struggling now because they all stopped farming shatter and its purely random who goes on at all.

So effectively, it really IS the skill of the players, and not the GC that makes the difference then? Otherwise Maelstrom would still be the "best" right now. . . It's like I was right all along. . .

I was a healer in it, so I didn't have many issues with NIN. My point is more if you love the better tactics of 3.0, you kind of have to realize they existed because counterplay was bad or nonexistent. Nin could take out stragglers only because stragglers as a whole were at a disadvantage in counterplaying it, the same way people at a disadvantage with sleep in frontlines, or stunlocks in feast.

CC and DR being universal was the counterplay for a lot of things. Relying on Sleep or stunlocks too much not only makes that strategy predictable, but it only worked so long before you made the player immune. Range is, and always was a counterplay to a melee, even if they had gap closers. Healers had Attunement, though even THAT had a workaround (Hawk's Eye) and wasn't a get out of jail free card if caught unaware/alone. There's also the fact that we weren't forced to choose crucial skills like Sprint or Purify over something else. EVERYONE could sprint. EVERYONE could Purify. And even if it had a long cooldown, fact is, you never had to choose between either one or any other beneficial PvP skills.

People see the button reduction and think "Oh they made it easier to pick up!" but they're missing a few important things:

• Everyone could sprint. It wasn't an optional skill.
• Everyone could Purify. Not much changed about Purify except that now it IS an optional skill that you have to consider over other things.
• PvP skills were upgradeable, and often worth it to do so. This is why there was PvP XP/ranks. They helped, but being low rank or having unupgraded skills weren't gamebreaking.
• Ranged didn't hit like melee, and even had a damage falloff at max ranges. They were still equally deadly, but didn't have nearly as much advantage as they do now.
• EVERYONE had several CC skills, most of which were quite sensible for the job that had it. In MCHs case, for having so many, they had shared cooldowns.
• Many skills that were deemed "useless" in PvE held VERY strong utility in PvP, such as Sleep, MNK's One Ilm Punch (removed buffs), binds in general
• Tanks were tanky. Healers were HEALERS. Yes, they could DPS, but it was low in potency and a far second to their primary role, which they excelled at.
• With access to the full PvE kit, and not a fixed set of abilities, however sensible or not, the individual skill of players really made a bigger difference then. This new system might promote more accessibility (perhaps as to encourage lower leveled players to get into it), but in a system where "anyone can be good", good players are still greater, and knowledge/understanding of the PvP system or the game mode still holds more weight.

[RiyahArp]

So effectively, it really IS the skill of the players, and not the GC that makes the difference then? Otherwise Maelstrom would still be the "best" right now. . . It's like I was right all along. . .

C'mon, you know Shatter is dead. Now that there's no real incentive to play or win at it, it's just that all the pvpers who packed Maelstrom just don't bother, not because it really was skill all along.

People see the button reduction and think "Oh they made it easier to pick up!" but they're missing a few important things:
Everyone could sprint. It wasn't an optional skill.
Everyone could Purify. Not much changed about Purify except that now it IS an optional skill that you have to consider over other things.
PvP skills were upgradeable, and often worth it to do so. This is why there was PvP XP/ranks. They helped, but being low rank or having unupgraded skills weren't gamebreaking.
Ranged didn't hit like melee, and even had a damage falloff at max ranges. They were still equally deadly, but didn't have nearly as much advantage as they do now.
EVERYONE had several CC skills, most of which were quite sensible for the job that had it. In MCHs case, for having so many, they had shared cooldowns.
Many skills that were deemed "useless" in PvE held VERY strong utility in PvP, such as Sleep, MNK's One Ilm Punch (removed buffs), binds in general
Tanks were tanky. Healers were HEALERS. Yes, they could DPS, but it was low in potency and a far second to their primary role, which they excelled at.
With access to the full PvE kit, and not a fixed set of abilities, however sensible or not, the individual skill of players really made a bigger difference then. This new system might promote more accessibility (perhaps as to encourage lower leveled players to get into it), but in a system where "anyone can be good", good players are still greater, and knowledge/understanding of the PvP system or the game mode still holds more weight.

As for the list, it honestly didn't really do as much as you think. Purify was just overwhelmed by all the CC, and barely useful in Feast if the DPS could manage to have excellent awareness and use it on the healer. Ranking up just meant you were gimped for a good month with lower cooldowns and less potency on some skills. The bard thing was like casters doing less on ice; it wasn't adding to skill, it was just a nerf since you didn't have zoning tools or even an indicator of distance unless you used plugins. I mean, we could go over the old days for hours. A lot of these tools you could really only use if you were pretty good, otherwise they'd be incredibly ineffective.

I'd rather honestly discuss fixes that won't up the complexity a lot. I'd rather straight healer nerfs or retooling than go back to stunlocks as a means to counter them.

[Wintersandman]

I'd rather honestly discuss fixes that won't up the complexity a lot. I'd rather straight healer nerfs or retooling than go back to stunlocks as a means to counter them.

Thinking simplicity is going to solve the issue is foolish. People need to learn how to use skill which is what is lacking. You can make the mode one button and it still wouldn't change anything. At least the complexity makes it Dynamic and less confusing than what we have now. You can't switch between PvE and PvP and expect the skills to perform the same.